Reply to: 300,000 jobs in public sector face the axe

[snaw]

But let's not forget they aren't a sitting target - If you reduce their pay by much, if at all, they'll simply hoof it off to the US.

Wasn't that the problem before? A big brain drain, which meant the UK had to import hordes of thirld-world doctors and nurses (after the expense of training UK equivalents who then left).

Well we're talking about Doctors - I don't think nurses are overpaid so not sure it's relevent.

BUT .. so what? My family doctor growing up from pakistan, and apart from struggling with his accent sometimes I had no issues with him. Why should I care if a UK Dr thinks 100 g's isn't enough and someone from a 3rd world country, who's good enough (key), comes and does his job for half the money? He provides the same service, pays taxes here etc. Really doesn't bother me in the slightest.

[shaunbhoy]

But let's not forget they aren't a sitting target - If you reduce their pay by much, if at all, they'll simply hoof it off to the US.

Wasn't that the problem before? A big brain drain, which meant the UK had to import hordes of thirld-world doctors and nurses (after the expense of training UK equivalents who then left).

Unusually, AtW hit the nail on the head. The damage has been done where the doctors are concerned. Not that I begrudge them a good salary mind you. However what happened was that their salary rose enormously well at a time when they also negotiated a considerable drop in their hours. A real double whammy for them. We cannot realistically change what has happened easily, but at the very least some swingeing pay freezing has to occur for a while.
I would also go so far as to suggest the government should be offering to cover the Uni costs of prospective doctors, to attract more people into the profession, with the obvious caveat that they must subsequently serve a reasonable time working within the NHS to repay these subsidies.

[OwlHoot]

Umm, I agree with AtW on this.

There's a basic economics law called diminishing returns, you get to a point where you pay them so muc and they're less interested in money and more interested in working hours/conditions etc. No one is suggesting Doctors should be low paid, but 140,000 is a **** load of money, and I'm sure 40k less won't maker a huge difference to their lives or hours worked, but does mean there's more money to go around for other Doctors/nurses or just savings.

But let's not forget they aren't a sitting target - If you reduce their pay by much, if at all, they'll simply hoof it off to the US.

Wasn't that the problem before? A big brain drain, which meant the UK had to import hordes of thirld-world doctors and nurses (after the expense of training UK equivalents who then left).

[centurian]

A plumber will charge you 60 quid just to come round to your house.

Again, it's not comparable. Plumber's don't run from job to job, 8 hours per day, 5 days per week.

Sure, they may have some busy days/weeks, but they will have slack time. Part of the plumber's callout charge is paying for downtime - waiting for calls.

Just like a contractor's rate should factor in bench time - something a GP doesn't have.

[centurian]

Just a question, did your school qualifications get you even in the zone of applying for medical school?

To get to a GPs level you have acheived the very highest standard for 15 years. It is not some 3 year degree then straight into a grad training program. You will have to be in the top 1% in school to even get to the interview which is a 50% shot to get in.

That's a different point to the one you were making. You were trying to compare contractor rates with GP rates.

But yes, school and university grades would have been sufficient. In fact, medicine was one option - didn't fancy it at the time.

I agree that GP's should be well paid - and I don't think I begrudge them their rate. But to try and state that IT contractors have similar levels of earnings is a very poor comparison.

[snaw]

I don't mind GPs, doctors etc paid very well.

What I mind is that they get pay increase and cut down actual working hours - Nu Liebor totally fked up negotiating with them.

Umm, I agree with AtW on this.

There's a basic economics law called diminishing returns, you get to a point where you pay them so muc and they're less interested in money and more interested in working hours/conditions etc. No one is suggesting Doctors should be low paid, but 140,000 is a **** load of money, and I'm sure 40k less won't maker a huge difference to their lives or hours worked, but does mean there's more money to go around for other Doctors/nurses or just savings.

[AtW]

I don't mind GPs, doctors etc paid very well.

What I mind is that they get pay increase and cut down actual working hours - Nu Liebor totally fked up negotiating with them.

[TimberWolf]

It depends who's getting cut. The massive bureaucracy and pointless non-jobs need to end. The issue isn't making those people jobless; it's making them capable of doing something useful. I would gladly see scores of health and safety, equality and diversity officers getting cut to keep GPs in a job.

Paying GPs excessively won't keep them in a job. Left uncorrected (and Cameron appears to want to let inflation do the work, which will take ages barring huge inflation) it will end badly for the economy, the NHS, health care provision and staff.

[Bunk]

Easy to say if you're on a good wage, but see context of thread title. Some people's lives are going to made a misery in what's to come. We are bankrupt. Isn't it better that those earning huge sums take a haircut (and still be left with a very decent standard of living) than try to extract more from the poor, who I doubt they have much more to give. This disparity has become excessive under Labour.

It depends who's getting cut. The massive bureaucracy and pointless non-jobs need to end. The issue isn't making those people jobless; it's making them capable of doing something useful. I would gladly see scores of health and safety, equality and diversity officers getting cut to keep GPs in a job.

[TimberWolf]

For once I agree with Minestrone, if your exam results were good enough to get you into medicine they were good enough to get you into any other uni course. You could have done law, vet medicine, dentistry etc. Economics or business studies to get into the city would have been a hell of a lot easier and wielded greater rewards. People do medicine not only because it earns a lot of money but because it's something they want to do. I had neither the grades nor the inclination to do medicine because frankly the things they have to deal with horrify me. I can make slightly less money looking at a computer screen all day where the worst thing I might see is some badly written code. I'll take that all day long over what GP's have to face.

In short, it's a calling. I don't grudge them the money, except to say that nurses should earn more too.

Easy to say if you're on a good wage, but see context of thread title. Some people's lives are going to made a misery in what's to come. We are bankrupt. Isn't it better that those earning huge sums take a haircut (and still be left with a very decent standard of living) than try to extract more from the poor, who I doubt they have much more to give. This disparity has become excessive under Labour.

[Bunk]

Just a question, did your school qualifications get you even in the zone of applying for medical school?

For once I agree with Minestrone, if your exam results were good enough to get you into medicine they were good enough to get you into any other uni course. You could have done law, vet medicine, dentistry etc. Economics or business studies to get into the city would have been a hell of a lot easier and wielded greater rewards. People do medicine not only because it earns a lot of money but because it's something they want to do. I had neither the grades nor the inclination to do medicine because frankly the things they have to deal with horrify me. I can make slightly less money looking at a computer screen all day where the worst thing I might see is some badly written code. I'll take that all day long over what GP's have to face.

In short, it's a calling. I don't grudge them the money, except to say that nurses should earn more too.

[TimberWolf]

The Gf has 4000 patients, she gets 140000 grand a year, with that the patients get access to a GP in 24 hours, in an emergency they will be there in the hour. That works out at 35 quid a year per patient.

A plumber will charge you 60 quid just to come round to your house. 35 quid is the price of a football game, 3 weeks SKY TV, 2 pizzas and a bottle of wine and if you can think about that and then say 35 quid per patient a year to have 24 hour GP access is too much then you should put down the crack pipe.

If her salary was £70k/year or less, we could afford 2 GPs for the same price and the patient service would likely be improved.

[minestrone]

The entry requirement must be similar in other first world countries and they manage to keep wages under control, USA excluding as it isn't a model we would want here. It should be a primary duty of government to keep health costs under control (as these could easily become extravagant left to their own devices) and Labour failed.

The Gf has 4000 patients, she gets 140000 grand a year, with that the patients get access to a GP in 24 hours, in an emergency they will be there in the hour. That works out at 35 quid a year per patient.

A plumber will charge you 60 quid just to come round to your house. 35 quid is the price of a football game, 3 weeks SKY TV, 2 pizzas and a bottle of wine and if you can think about that and then say 35 quid per patient a year to have 24 hour GP access is too much then you should put down the crack pipe.

[TimberWolf]

I never even bothered asking you if you managed to get the qualifications to get into med school, I already know the anwer.

You have been banging on about Doctors for years on this site, you obviously have some deeper issue than you are letting on.

You don't know the 'anwer' to anything.

It's come up before and it's come up again now. Perhaps you'd prefer it was not be discussed.

[AtW]

I never even bothered asking you if you managed to get the qualifications to get into med school, I already know the anwer.