Reply to: How do you stop/control immigration?

[scooterscot]

Well come one then, how would you do it?

To quote a senior in my previous employment -

"I'd shoot the $@££$@£ when they come through the tunnel"

[Paddy]

Possibly, but I think Turks have gone off the whole EU idea as they're doing quite well without it and don't fancy being treated like tulipe everywhere they go. Anyway, educated and succesful Turks can usually either get into the EU via employment or are better off staying in Turkey where they can enjoy a very good quality of life.

ISTANBUL—Turkey's gross domestic product bounced an unexpectedly high 6% in the fourth quarter, a stellar performance given the woes afflicting other economies in the region such as Greece.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...507619458.html

IMHO, I think Turkey in the EU would actually bring investment opportunities to the UK but there maybe a down for Turkey because they would lose business with Russia and Iran

[Mich the Tester]

Beats me why Romania et al were allowed into the EU. They clearly weren't at the right level economically. It should be pretty even really so you get a cross flow. Turkey will never get into the EU...the EU is strictly Christian. All this talk of Turkey coming in is just posturing.

Romania was allowed in in the hope it would drag the place upwards; it's workign to some extent but there are still massive corruption issues and a lot of poverty. As for the 'strictly Christian' thing, Britain and Germany are two of the most secular societies in the world, and even Italy and Ireland are becoming more secular.

But yes, there's a lot to be said for ensuring a country is at a similar level of economic capacity.

[TimberWolf]

Beats me why Romania et al were allowed into the EU. They clearly weren't at the right level economically. It should be pretty even really so you get a cross flow. Turkey will never get into the EU...the EU is strictly Christian. All this talk of Turkey coming in is just posturing.

I agree.

[Mich the Tester]

Well leaving things as they are isn't a good solution either. Turkey next?

Possibly, but I think Turks have gone off the whole EU idea as they're doing quite well without it and don't fancy being treated like tulipe everywhere they go. Anyway, educated and succesful Turks can usually either get into the EU via employment or are better off staying in Turkey where they can enjoy a very good quality of life.

[lilelvis2000]

Beats me why Romania et al were allowed into the EU. They clearly weren't at the right level economically. It should be pretty even really so you get a cross flow. Turkey will never get into the EU...the EU is strictly Christian. All this talk of Turkey coming in is just posturing.

[TimberWolf]

The reasoning for an open door policy with the EU was that most EU nationals have reached a similar standard of education at their particular level and standard of living; to some extent that was true before the accession of the new EU countries which were catching up fast until more recent economic difficulties. It was also thought that lots of Brits would move around the EU; which has happened. I think an open borders policy with NZ, Oz, Canada would indeed be sensible, as it would allow for free movement of people with the same language who are quickly able to adapt; it would allow people from Oz and NZ to come to Europe to do business and study and might relieve pressure in Britain as people would retire to the infinitely more attractive places you’ve named, bringing their savings with them. Trouble is, the EU would then go apetulip as Britain would be ‘opening the door‘ to lots of people. But yes, stuff the EU on this one and do it. But restricting the free movement in the EU would cause a lot of undesirable side effects; one being the return of millions of British expats, another being damage to businesses in UK and Europe.

Well leaving things as they are isn't a good solution either. Turkey next?

[Mich the Tester]

Set a limit on numbers. We're going in circles here.



A bit of migration is okay (and needn't involve the population growing), but what we've had has been insane given our already large population. An open door policy might have worked better between us, NZ, OZ and Canada.

The reasoning for an open door policy with the EU was that most EU nationals have reached a similar standard of education at their particular level and standard of living; to some extent that was true before the accession of the new EU countries which were catching up fast until more recent economic difficulties. It was also thought that lots of Brits would move around the EU; which has happened. I think an open borders policy with NZ, Oz, Canada would indeed be sensible, as it would allow for free movement of people with the same language who are quickly able to adapt; it would allow people from Oz and NZ to come to Europe to do business and study and might relieve pressure in Britain as people would retire to the infinitely more attractive places you’ve named, bringing their savings with them. Trouble is, the EU would then go apetulip as Britain would be ‘opening the door‘ to lots of people. But yes, stuff the EU on this one and do it. But restricting the free movement in the EU would cause a lot of undesirable side effects; one being the return of millions of British expats, another being damage to businesses in UK and Europe.

[TimberWolf]

Hmmm, difficult. I suspect many of their jobs will move overseas or be replaced by machines. But I still haven't heard how migration can be stopped.

Set a limit on numbers. We're going in circles here.

I must declare a vested interest here; I have been a 'migrant' for most of my life; first a ´political´ migrant, as my family were unable to stay in west Africa due to ethnic tensions and lots of mad imams shouting ´kill the white men´, then economic migrant as we moved for my father´s business, then a so-called 'love migrant', as the good Lady Tester is Dutch. I don't see how my movements have been harming anyone all this time.

A bit of migration is okay (and needn't involve the population growing), but what we've had has been insane given our already large population. An open door policy might have worked better between us, NZ, OZ and Canada.

[Mich the Tester]

Migration delays the demographic problem and makes it worse for later generations. It needs to be tackled. The "chav underclass" does useful work for the most part and keeps the economy afloat and undermining their standard of living through migration makes them less a part of society. Do you think educating them further is going to make these important jobs they do go away?

Hmmm, difficult. I suspect many of their jobs will move overseas or be replaced by machines. But I still haven't heard how migration can be stopped.

I must declare a vested interest here; I have been a 'migrant' for most of my life; first a ´political´ migrant, as my family were unable to stay in west Africa due to ethnic tensions and lots of mad imams shouting ´kill the white men´, then economic migrant as we moved for my father´s business, then a so-called 'love migrant', as the good Lady Tester is Dutch. I don't see how my movements have been harming anyone all this time.

[TimberWolf]

Indeed, it is large. Given the age build up of the population, it would start falling without migration, but then you have a problem of lots of old unproductive people and a shortage of young productive types. Unless, of course, you can train the chav underclass to do useful work, which unfortunately I have to say has been tried. Are immigrants really the problem here? Isn't the problem actually a failure to prepare lots of people, regardless of their background, to play some useful part in society?

Migration delays the demographic problem and makes it worse for later generations. It needs to be tackled. The "chav underclass" does useful work for the most part and keeps the economy afloat and undermining their standard of living through migration makes them less a part of society. Do you think educating them further is going to make these important jobs they do go away?

[Mich the Tester]

I don't care whether they are working or not working. Our population is too large.

Indeed, it is large. Given the age build up of the population, it would start falling without migration, but then you have a problem of lots of old unproductive people and a shortage of young productive types. Unless, of course, you can train the chav underclass to do useful work, which unfortunately I have to say has been tried. Are immigrants really the problem here? Isn't the problem actually a failure to prepare lots of people, regardless of their background, to play some useful part in society?

[gingerjedi]

but the problem you are avoiding is that many of these second or third hand Indians or Pakistanis or Bangladeshis do not wish to work in Indian restaurant. I see exactly the same problem in Amsterdam with Indonesian restaurants. They want other jobs becasue they are more ambitious than their parents generations.

Then the market should push up the chefs wages and the job will become desirable again.

That's the problem with just about all economic migration, many companies protect and increase profit by importing cheap labour to the detriment of the indigenous population, ICT's anyone?

[TimberWolf]

SO how big is the problem with legal migration? How many legal migrants are claiming benefits or committing crimes as opposed to how many are getting on and contributing?

I don't care whether they are working or not working. Our population is too large. A lot of the working class are subsidised by the tax payer anyway, with such things as tax credits, NHS, housing, etc, so the distinction between working and not working is not all that polarised. Anyway, numbers is the importing thing to me, not employment status which can change.

How many legal migrants are there in the UK? What do you want to do with them, bearing in mind that there are estimated to much more British legal immigrants in the EU, and that many businesses rely on bringing in other people from within the EU to do specialised work.

10 million? As I said at the start, it's probably too late now.

[Swati]

Shirley this chefery can be passed down the generations, you don't need to send your first born to the sub continent to learn how to cook a balti so why do you need to constantly import new talent?

Sainsburys and Asda do a mean Jalfrazi these days anyway.

but the problem you are avoiding is that many of these second or third hand Indians or Pakistanis or Bangladeshis do not wish to work in Indian restaurant. I see exactly the same problem in Amsterdam with Indonesian restaurants. They want other jobs becasue they are more ambitious than their parents generations.