Reply to: Kennedy resigns ... but so what?

[AlfredJPruffock]

I suspect that most alcoholics lie to themselves, and not just others.

Wasn't Alastair Campbell once an alcoholic? If not 100%, he had alcohol problems and is now tea-total.

Not only was Churchill a sot, but Roosevelt was also fond of a tipple or two and more than once had to be carried to his bedroom by aides.

The ones to be really frightened of are the tea-totallers:

Adolf Hitler
Osama bin-Laden
Tony Benn

Hitler was the real fruit cake. He did not smoke or drink, and he was a vegan. (He did not want to harm animals?) According to one source, "a typical meal consisted of zwieback toast, mushrooms, yogurt, honey, laxatives and capsules derived from Bulgarian peasants feces." Tasty.

Fungus

But Hitler was an amphetamine addict whose doctor later tried to wean him
off by prescibing cocaine, that might explain why he was nocturnal and spent many a a long night poring over maps of Europe, also at the end his bizzare requests for the deployment of imaginary panzer divisions.

[Churchill]

These people who choose to tell us how to live our lives should lead by example.

Now you're 'avin a feckin' laugh!

Should is the operative word!

[DodgyAgent]

Shows how little you know and how judgemental you are about something you know nothing about - which the same can be said about most of society on this issue. Alcoholism runs in my family - it is genetic and has been proven scientifically to be a fact. Becoming an Alcoholic is not self-induced but knowing you are and not doing anything about it is a different story. You will probably find that some of the most powerful and respected people in the world are recoverring acloholics - they just have not made it public due to the social stigma attached and you have justified why they should remain secret about it.

Try reading http://www.qis.net/~truth/t_h_i_q_.htm as an example then maybe do a google on THIQ and you will find that lots of medical research concludes that becoming an alcoholic is not self-induced but a genetic fact.

Will I be kicked off this board because alcoholism runs in my family now?

Yes I have heard this, and yes like children born with aids it is likely that alcoholic women who have babies will be bringing alcoholic babies into the world. I dont think this applies to Charles Kennedy who like most alcoholics, whatever you say drink through choice. We can all play "alcoholics in the family so dont challenge me" cards, but no one is forced to drink whatever their genetic make up.
Your argument applies equally to paedophiles who mostly themselves are victims of abuse.

A politician with aids, a politician with a child suffering from cerebral palsy, a politician who is gay, Black, Female are all acceptable, as would be a reformed alcoholic. A druggie, a paedo or an alcoholic no. These people who choose to tell us how to live our lives should lead by example.

[Fungus]

From Kennedy's point of view, I think the real issue is not that he is over fond of the pop, but that he lied about it. Then again, we see from the government all the time that telling porkies is no hindrance to holding even the highest office in the land.

I suspect that most alcoholics lie to themselves, and not just others.

Wasn't Alastair Campbell once an alcoholic? If not 100%, he had alcohol problems and is now tea-total.

Not only was Churchill a sot, but Roosevelt was also fond of a tipple or two and more than once had to be carried to his bedroom by aides.

The ones to be really frightened of are the tea-totallers:

Adolf Hitler
Osama bin-Laden
Tony Benn

Hitler was the real fruit cake. He did not smoke or drink, and he was a vegan. (He did not want to harm animals?) According to one source, "a typical meal consisted of zwieback toast, mushrooms, yogurt, honey, laxatives and capsules derived from Bulgarian peasants feces." Tasty.

Fungus

[Lucifer Box]

I think those LibDem MPs have shown themselves to be hypocrites though. After all, they were quite happy to keep quiet about it and carry on until the day before the Daily Express was going to spash the story (last Thursday I think). In other words, they were okay with it as long as Joe Public didn't know.

From Kennedy's point of view, I think the real issue is not that he is over fond of the pop, but that he lied about it. Then again, we see from the government all the time that telling porkies is no hindrance to holding even the highest office in the land.

[wendigo100]

If half of the Liberal MPs would not work under him any more, it is probably right for him to resign - regardless of whether he is an alcoholic or not. It isn't our call.

Remember, they have had him as leader for nearly five years, and know twenty times as much as we do about him.

Suppose he'd done things like leap amorously on Margaret Becket in an drunken stupor in the Commons bar - I'm not saying he did by the way - would you want a boss like that in the most public job of all?

[OwlHoot]

What ever you think of them personally noone can doubt their achievements

1. Winston Churchill was renowned for it and his daughter Sarah was confirmed as alcoholic in her own biography
2. Henry Kissinger Noble Peace Prize winnner admitted it
   The presenter on an American television chat show asked world-renowned diplomat Henry Kissinger what was the most valuable export the US had given to the world. "Alcoholics Anonymous," came his reply.
3. Ted Kennedy
4. George Bush
5. Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin - 2nd man on the moon (they said they would give him endless supply of moonshine)

There are no doubt many more but as seen in the UK acknowledging it publicly is suicide

By modern standards, practically every politician was a gout-ridden alcoholic in the eighteenth century, when Britain's economy and world influence was expanding as never before - William Pitt Jr was on two bottles of port a day (having been prescribed a bottle a day at the age of 14, on account of growing pains in his joints).

[privateeye]

Some famous alcoholics over the years

What ever you think of them personally noone can doubt their achievements

1. Winston Churchill was renowned for it and his daughter Sarah was confirmed as alcoholic in her own biography
2. Henry Kissinger Noble Peace Prize winnner admitted it
   The presenter on an American television chat show asked world-renowned diplomat Henry Kissinger what was the most valuable export the US had given to the world. "Alcoholics Anonymous," came his reply.
3. Ted Kennedy
4. George Bush
5. Edwin "Buzz" Aldrin - 2nd man on the moon (they said they would give him endless supply of moonshine)

There are no doubt many more but as seen in the UK acknowledging it publicly is suicide

[Mordac]

He's not respected much either.

[AtW]

>You will probably find that some of the most powerful and respected people in the world are recoverring acloholics

George W Bush for example.

He is not a decision maker - his advisors are real people who run USA, just like in Russia Eltsin's advisors run it, do you want the same for the UK? An alchogolic in a high position is a major security risk too.

[Mordac]

>You will probably find that some of the most powerful and respected people in the world are recoverring acloholics

George W Bush for example.

>He's too likeable and the sort of person you could have a chat with at the local boozer.

Quite a long chat by the sound of things...

[privateeye]

With respect to your own experiences privateeye, I'm not persuaded enough by the studies you quote.

That is one of the main problems, dispite it being scientific fact it just gets brushed aside by the general public. The big problem we have is that most people think that everyone should be like them and because they can drink and get away with they will not accept that someone else can't. If someone decided not to drink you can be sure that others will try and manipulate them to do so that is why I'm so full of praise for those that don't drink - they have far more strength than anyone down the pub who is just weak enough to follow the crowd.

To say alcoholism is self induced sounds heartless and perhaps it is - but that does not necessarily invalidate the accusation in totality.

Very true, the point at which a person knows he is an alcoholic he is entirely responsible as there are several avenues for them to do something about it. Prior to the point that someone actually knows they are an alcoholic then although still entirely responsible for their actions I think there is a level of "diminished responsibilty" for want of a better term. It does not excuse them for example if they are involved in crime and I don't think they should get treated any more leniently because of it but there is more chance of rehabilitating someone if the real problem is recognised saving re-occurrence etc. Brushing it off as self-inflicted certainly has not worked.

[BobTheCrate]

With respect to your own experiences privateeye, I'm not persuaded enough by the studies you quote.

I have no difficulty in acknowledging genetics has a significant effect. But genetics has a significant effect on an enormous amount of our behaviour. Criminality for example, sexual deviation/violence another, uncontrolled gambling yet another. We each have to try living our lives within the parameters of our own genetics and take personal responsibility as and when we drift over the edge.

To say alcoholism is self induced sounds heartless and perhaps it is - but that does not necessarily invalidate the accusation in totality.

[BobTheCrate]

What the public saw of Kennedy, obviously was far, far different to what his fellow MPs did - at least 30 of those that worked with him anyway.

They obviously felt his alcoholism did impact his job.

Whether it did effect his job or not is neither here nor there. How could he continue when so many had threatened to either resign themselves or not work with him after Monday - whatever their motivation ?

[privateeye]

His illness my friend is entirely self induced. He does not have cancer for example - and you my friend are trying to put alcoholism on the same level as those who suffer from illness through no fault of their own.

Shows how little you know and how judgemental you are about something you know nothing about - which the same can be said about most of society on this issue. Alcoholism runs in my family - it is genetic and has been proven scientifically to be a fact. Becoming an Alcoholic is not self-induced but knowing you are and not doing anything about it is a different story. You will probably find that some of the most powerful and respected people in the world are recoverring acloholics - they just have not made it public due to the social stigma attached and you have justified why they should remain secret about it.

Try reading http://www.qis.net/~truth/t_h_i_q_.htm as an example then maybe do a google on THIQ and you will find that lots of medical research concludes that becoming an alcoholic is not self-induced but a genetic fact.

Will I be kicked off this board because alcoholism runs in my family now?