Reply to: Do you think you have free will?

[doodab]

Apologies to timberwolf but...

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/dfwIntroIndex.htm

[Boudica]

choosing not to choose is a choice (satre)

[larson]

People have "free will" within the confines of the environment in which they live. I would say the random tribes still floating about some areas of the planet are the truly free ones, only interested in the food they eat, their family and tribes, and likely some god they have created through history.

To give an example, the difference between the Chinese and ourselves is not huge, as they simply admit they live in an environment in which the government, media, economy, is closely controlled. In reality in the UK our media is heavily controlled, as they are owned by a few select groups, each with various political acquaintances. A clear example is Murdoch's papers swing from Labour to Tory, which will persaude millions of people to then vote tory based on subtle - or not, as the case may be - wording of articles,and the general spin we are all used to.

A predictable governmental pattern from tory to labour, ad infinitum, basically means we have a predictable style of government. Political parties and media outlets now accept and plan for this as a result, so that these are now synonymous with the way the UK is controlled.

When I was an intern at a large multi-national IT firm it amazed me how many people expressed unhappiness in the UK compared to what I heard from friends in European countries, but here people just accepted it and got on with it. Finish at 5pm, back to their dull grey-fronted flat in whatever city.

The problem is the British people themselves now; media outlets, government, and all of us are people firstly, employees secondly. We make up business and the cogs that keep Britain going. I'm from Scotland, so do feel quite different to many English friends I know, just because my outlook on life is based on one not in a built-up city and my vision is not solely money, money, money.

I'd prefer the UK was much more like many parts of Europe, we should take the good aspects of European life, and ditch the increasing Americanised corporate mentality that I am sure within 20 years will either take over, or disappear, depending on how the British people take it. It seems people are desperate to be like the 'big country', with no real awareness of just how many problems the USA has.

Talking of which, anybody see 'Requiem for Detroit' on BBCFOUR the other day? If you're bored after my long post, go and watch it on iplayer. Fantastically made film with superb use of music.

[HairyArsedBloke]

BTW, FlashForward is back on telly.

Do you want to know what happens in eps 11 & 12?

[doodab]

Oh, don't go bringing philosophy into this.

Sorry.

[TimberWolf]

Most poeple know their age, but the question of free will is still undecided and under debate by philosophers and suchlike, hence intelligent people tend to think about it rather than vote immediately. If the denizens of CUK were idiots, the numbers would probably be the other way around.

Oh, don't go bringing philosophy into this.

[doodab]

How come 40 people can answer a poll about how old they are and yet only 18 can decide whether they have free will or not?

Most poeple know their age, but the question of free will is still undecided and under debate by philosophers and suchlike, hence intelligent people tend to think about it rather than vote immediately. If the denizens of CUK were idiots, the numbers would probably be the other way around.

[TimberWolf]

How come 40 people can answer a poll about how old they are and yet only 18 can decide whether they have free will or not?

[Mich the Tester]

I have NEVER been so insulted in all my life.



well , ok I have. but not recently.
well , thats not true either


aw fergerrit


oh Lord we beseech thee, amen
psssttt - crack tubes - slurrrp

I saw what you did there.

[doodab]

all you are doing doodab, is heaping more ofuscation on the original premise

i would sit here for hours defining exactly what quantum mechanic has to be where to make a proper experiment.

the beauty of a thought experiment is that you can get round all that by saying


if everything remains the same or
all things being equal


so all things being equal
a determinist will choose a every time
a freewill will not

Er, no all I am doing is pointing out that a non-free-willed decision making machine would pass your free will test in a non-deterministic universe.

[MaryPoppins]

Well free will, surely, is that you come to a fork in the road, and you can choose the left road, or the right.

If there is determinism, you would always choose the left, if you had free will, you might sometimes take the right.

whether a toad ever gets to make choices I dont know.

how you might prove the road thing ? i would guess it would have to be a thought experiment.

I knew your thought experiment would involve boning someone's missus, or someone boning yours, or something.

[EternalOptimist]

I think EO’s brain has overheated. Either that or he’s had just had his tenth pint of the afternoon.

I have NEVER been so insulted in all my life.



well , ok I have. but not recently.
well , thats not true either


aw fergerrit


oh Lord we beseech thee, amen
psssttt - crack tubes - slurrrp

[Mich the Tester]

I think EO’s brain has overheated. Either that or he’s had just had his tenth pint of the afternoon.

[EternalOptimist]

all you are doing doodab, is heaping more ofuscation on the original premise

i would sit here for hours defining exactly what quantum mechanic has to be where to make a proper experiment.

the beauty of a thought experiment is that you can get round all that by saying


if everything remains the same or
all things being equal


so all things being equal
a determinist will choose a every time
a freewill will not

[Mich the Tester]

No, mine cost me more than a thousand euros. Bloody solicitors, they’re like contractors but more expensive.

But is the decision due to free will if it's dependent on a non deterministic quantum process over which the alien has no control?

Sure, you might not get the same outcome every time, but that doesn't make it an act of free will, any more than the quantum process itself is an act of free will.

This all demonstrates that my original interpretation of the question makes it much easier to answer.