Reply to: Tonight's Question Time

[Gonzo]

Indeed. There were two parents at home (a mum and a dad, sorry but that has to be pointed out), a Church each Sunday and a school who taught Christian values that complemented the upbringing at Church and home.

Now we have schools who ignore Christian teachings, families without a father and people don't go to Church. And we wonder why our society is deteriorating. The liberal-left buffoons think we need to throw more handouts at people and have more immigration to help matters.

They are very irresponsible dangerous people, don't vote for them.

The nuclear family with a Christian upbringing is not the only way to achieve social stability, large parts of the world do perfectly well without them. That is not to say that their cultures do not have something else that achieves the same outcome.

[SueEllen]

Indeed. There were two parents at home (a mum and a dad, sorry but that has to be pointed out), a Church each Sunday and a school who taught Christian values that complemented the upbringing at Church and home.

Now we have schools who ignore Christian teachings, families without a father and people don't go to Church.

We have always had schools that ignore Christian teachings simply because the staff in the schools aren't Christian themselves , or if they proclaim to be and are bigots who lead very un-Christian lives.

For example in my primary school all the older members of staff who proclaimed to be Christian where bigots and creationists, so my favourite two teachers where the Hindu and Sikh teachers.

In secondary school which was more mixed, all the RE teachers where Buddhists. So teaching us Christian values would have been very funny.

And we wonder why our society is deteriorating. The liberal-left buffoons think we need to throw more handouts at people and have more immigration to help matters.

They are very irresponsible dangerous people, don't vote for them.

The liberal left think poverty in the traditional sense is the root cause of children having poor upbringings, they don't realise poverty of mind is just as important.

Oh and Catholic Churches have been doing very well in recent times, and so has some of the other denomination Churches near me. Mainly due to the increase in the number of immigrants who actually go to Church.

[BoredBloke]

When I was little, about 8 we liven in holland. There was another English family who lived over the road form us and me and my sister (9) used to play with them. Thier oldest son was about 10 or 11. We were playing this game that the oldest lad made up. We were in the huge sandpit opposite our house and he told us to kneel down in the sand covering our eyes. The next thing I heard was a loud scream from my sister. He'd got hold of one of the shovels and cracked it into her head - it was metal and he got her with it side on. The result could have been horrific had he done it properly but he only got a glancing blow and she had to have stitches. To this day I don't know why he did it, why my sister and not me and wouldn't like to think of the consequences if he'd hit her 'right'

I know he dad beat the living crap out of him though - kind of saved my dad a job there I think!

[Moscow Mule]

I don't know what happens in school these days but when I was at school there were morning assemblies & these almost always involved listening to the headmaster pontificating on the rights and wrongs of something or other.

It's covered a bit in KS1 PSHE, but not as regularly as a morning assembly.

[wurzel]

The right and wrong in what context? Mathematics?

I don't know what happens in school these days but when I was at school there were morning assemblies & these almost always involved listening to the headmaster pontificating on the rights and wrongs of something or other.

[contractor79]

I agree.

However, until about three generations ago, kids would have learned about this stuff in Church. There is now a gap in our society and currently nothing is fulfilling the role that the Church used to, for the vast majority of people.

Indeed. There were two parents at home (a mum and a dad, sorry but that has to be pointed out), a Church each Sunday and a school who taught Christian values that complemented the upbringing at Church and home.

Now we have schools who ignore Christian teachings, families without a father and people don't go to Church. And we wonder why our society is deteriorating. The liberal-left buffoons think we need to throw more handouts at people and have more immigration to help matters.

They are very irresponsible dangerous people, don't vote for them.

[contractor79]

I'm not one for a reactionary rant but tonight I'm making an exception. There was a question about raising the age of criminal responsibility (of course all in the context of the Jamie Bulger murder ) & the woman from the Green party (like Will Self a couple of weeks ago) questioned whether a child of 10 could differentiate between right & wrong & therefore should not be criminally culpable. FFS they bludgeoned that kid to death and left him on a railway line to get splattered by the next oncoming train. How could anyone, no matter how old they are, think that that is right? Makes me so effing angry. Sorry.

The liberal-left reject the Biblical teachings that we have a conscience that teaches us right from wrong, and also that we are born with a sinful nature.

They think people become murderers etc. only because they're not getting enough handouts, want to blame successful people, taxpayers, other people who they call 'society', for these things. They don't believe in blaming the people who do the crimes for the crimes.

Their loony liberal-left thinking is detached from reality and it is dangerous to continue to vote for such people.

These people pontificate from their white middle class safe areas and have the cheek to accuse poorer whites of being racist, too harsh on criminals etc. whilst they've deliberately excluded themselves from such problems by living where they are.

[Gonzo]

It is not the schools responsibility to teach a child right from wrong.

I agree.

However, until about three generations ago, kids would have learned about this stuff in Church. There is now a gap in our society and currently nothing is fulfilling the role that the Church used to, for the vast majority of people.

I am not at all pro religion, quite the opposite in fact, but I can see how it has played a crucial role in supporting the development of society and that now there is a gap that must be filled or our society will self-destruct.

[larson]

I still find it a little hard to believe that at some point in their 10 years they wouldn't have been introduced to the concept of killing another person being a bad thing whether it was from their parents, school, other adults they were in contact with, their own contemporaries, even television or film. But, if it were the case, then I'd have to say that they'd had an incredibly bleak existence.

Your final sentence accurately summarises the life of far too many children in the UK. Low class job, minimal prospects, bad parenting that many of us realise made them do crap at school, meaning they haven't had the preparation required to ever seriously educate themselves to specialise in a business sector, result: crap quality of life that they see is their future, so escapism through any adult pursuits with the 'wrong group of friends' is what happens.

Look at the rubbish some children are fed, the lack of parental attention - children lumped on a sofa to watch tv, or left alone outside to do whatever they want with friends, often on rough estates that are mostly council owned. All these small factors link together to morph a child into having a statistically small chance of ever achieving much in life, which is why from a young age many end up in all sorts. Peer pressure and social manipulation with multiple people participating can drive children to do all manner of horrible things, as with cases we have seen recently.

My own opinion is that the UK is not a very good place to live anymore or be brought up in as a growing child, and I certainly don't plan on having children in the distant future.

In response to some other comments, children and certain groups of people possess an inability to look at 'the bigger picture', or take a look at situations from an outside perspective.

Children do not just 'become' killers or abusers, just as adult paedophiles do not simply generally decide to grow a sexual attraction to children. Severe psychological issues - which does not excuse any of the adult actions - are seen to be the cause.

I really am against criminalising children through beurocracy, and although obviously certain children do very appalling things, it seems unfair to label them with a badge if they have only done something based on a rather messed up past. Can a child be held responsible for the bad, negative and socially damaging, upbringing by attrocious parents or guardians? I believe not. Can they, when they are adults, having had the chance to face their problems - liek an adult should - be held responsible through councilling or therapy? Most definitely yes. Some people will never have self awareness or realise they are crazy. Those people can pose serious issues to society, and they should be treated as the adults they are.

Children do not have this ability, as they learn it over many years. Rushing them into growing up can lead them to a whole host of other problems, such as humping each other and getting pregnant aged 12, boozing, and everything else on the list.

[wurzel]

I still find it a little hard to believe that at some point in their 10 years they wouldn't have been introduced to the concept of killing another person being a bad thing whether it was from their parents, school, other adults they were in contact with, their own contemporaries, even television or film. But, if it were the case, then I'd have to say that they'd had an incredibly bleak existence.

[Moscow Mule]

Quite. And if it's the case that these kids don't know right from wrong as a result of their parents' deriliction of duty I would have expected there to have been many more cases like this.

Really?

I think there was a little bit more than dereliction of duty. Most parents have an inkling of what they should be teaching their kids - some are just not very good at it.

[wurzel]

Far too many parents these days seem to have kids without any idea of their own responsibility for their child's behaviour.

Quite. And if it's the case that these kids don't know right from wrong as a result of their parents' deriliction of duty I would have expected there to have been many more cases like this. As it stands there have only been 2; Thompson/Venables & Mary Bell.

[Moscow Mule]

No and yes but the primary school wasn't private. We didn't study WW2 in any depth, just dipped our toes in like we did with a whole range of subjects. We did the Romans, prehistoric man, various kings of England, Nelson etc. I thought this was normal!

I don't think I saw any pictures of Belsen etc until I was well into GCSEs.

Anyway, we're straying from my point, which is that the parents should not abdicate their responsibility to teach right from wrong because "the school cover that".

Far too many parents these days seem to have kids without any idea of their own responsibility for their child's behaviour.

That is not to say all parents are bad / like that but if I had a pound for every time the missus had come home with a story about how parents had not backed up a school in a disciplinary matter then I'd have enough for a night in the pub.

[TimberWolf]

I don't recall wanting to kill people at the age of 5 left alone 10, or actually carrying it out. Clearly there is something wrong with these kids, but then again so is there with almost all murderers of any age.

[wurzel]

Are you over 50 or privately educated?

No and yes but the primary school wasn't private. We didn't study WW2 in any depth, just dipped our toes in like we did with a whole range of subjects. We did the Romans, prehistoric man, various kings of England, Nelson etc. I thought this was normal!