Reply to: National Pride

[darmstadt]

Mich the tester - proud to be Argentinian

Well this evening I shall be German as they're playing Argentina (and they don't tend to show England friendlies on German TV.)

[OrangeHopper]

Don't worry, it diminishes with age and doesn't become a concern.

[doodab]

Thousands of British people have died fighting so you could enjoy Celebrity Come Dancing & X Factor

The suckers.

FTFY

[DodgyAgent]

So “national pride” can really only be of value or moral standing as long as it’s voluntary, and as soon as it is enforced by law, or by coercion through a mob, it loses it’s moral standing and becomes abject, possibly even depraved.

As a rugby player I am astonished that you do not understand this subject better.

[Mich the Tester]

Thousands of British people have died fighting so you could enjoy your 'european' values.

The suckers.

And Dutch people, and Belgian people, and French people, and Scandinavians, and Czechs and Slovakians, and Russians, and Americans and Canadians and even Germans. Of course, many brave British people made huge sacrifices, even the ultimate sacrifice to defend my ‘European values’, but so did many others, including, British, Dutch and even German members of my family; surely a moral approach to this would recognize that sacrifice as one shared by decent people all over Europe and indeed the world, and not as one pertaining to a particular nation.

Oh, and by the way, yes, I have German ancestors, no, that doesn’t make me German or a Nazi, and yes, they did some pretty bloody scary things to try and help Jews in the 1940s. I’m not proud though, as I wasn’t there. I hope that in a similar position I would have the same moral courage, but for me, just as for them, it would have nothing to do with national pride, but with morality.

[Mich the Tester]

Indeed I find the present values of the UK: celebrity, materialism and greed revolting. Luckily, I am not forced to indulge and do not do so, prefering to remain my modest, unassuming self.

So “national pride” can really only be of value or moral standing as long as it’s voluntary, and as soon as it is enforced by law, or by coercion through a mob, it loses it’s moral standing and becomes abject, possibly even depraved.

[Flashman]

Ah, some intelligent answers arriving now!

I do indeed try to defend certain values, but those values are perhaps more generically western European/western/modern/libertarian/enlightenmentish than belonging to any particular nation or state.

Thousands of British people have died fighting so you could enjoy your 'european' values.

The suckers.

[Gibbon]

I can see why you read it in Greek, your English wasn't up to scratch

Ouch !

Although English is only my intermediate language when not doing Greek and Latin

[sasguru]

Ah, but here lies a problem. You could have chosen to go along with the majority view, or indeed the view of the democratically elected government in Germany in the 1930’s and 1940’s and abide by the law, but a few brave individuals followed their conscience instead. They died for their consciences, and were, by the law of the land, traitors. But surely their moral stand makes them heroes now?





Now I’m not saying national pride equals national socialism, that would be silly and insulting, but I am proposing that an individual or a small group of individuals can be morally sound while opposing, even violently, the ‘morals’ of the majority and breaking the law. This example may seem extreme, but might stimulate thought and debate on the relation of individual morality to state law.

Indeed I find the present values of the UK: celebrity, materialism and greed revolting. Luckily, I am not forced to indulge and do not do so, prefering to remain my modest, unassuming self.

[Mich the Tester]

But a pot noodle can be made and scoffed in a couple of minutes.

You eat your own?

[OwlHoot]

Noodles are a form of Pasta, so it doesn't really matter.

But a pot noodle can be made and scoffed in a couple of minutes.

[sasguru]

Mich,

Read Sophocles Antigone, it is making this point and a perfect illustration of state v the individual. Seamus Heany has done a good translation if you're Greek isn't up to scratch.

I can see why you read it in Greek, your English wasn't up to scratch

[Mich the Tester]

Mich,

Read Sophocles Antigone, it is making this point and a perfect illustration of state v the individual. Seamus Heany has done a good translation if you're Greek isn't up to scratch.

Indeed, shall do. I can’t read everything in one go, and have often indulged myself more in 20th century literature and art than the classics, perhaps because I grew up in 20th century Europe and that was more relevant to what I see around me. I think in a strange way Kafka illustrates the feeling of being trapped in a system knowing something is wrong yet feeling powerless to fight back, Orwell illustrates the abuse of language to bend the minds of the masses and Picasso’s Guernica gives a modern and blatant warning of the horrors of modern warfare while Owen’s poetry shows the horrific consequences of blind loyalty. Must take some time to read the Greek classics.

[Gibbon]

Mich,

Read Sophocles Antigone, it is making this point and a perfect illustration of state v the individual. Seamus Heany has done a good translation if you're Greek isn't up to scratch.

[Mich the Tester]

In who's opinion, that is not a valid argument otherwise anarchy would prevail.

Ah, but here lies a problem. You could have chosen to go along with the majority view, or indeed the view of the democratically elected government in Germany in the 1930’s and 1940’s and abide by the law, but a few brave individuals followed their conscience instead. They died for their consciences, and were, by the law of the land, traitors. But surely their moral stand makes them heroes now?





Now I’m not saying national pride equals national socialism, that would be silly and insulting, but I am proposing that an individual or a small group of individuals can be morally sound while opposing, even violently, the ‘morals’ of the majority and breaking the law. This example may seem extreme, but might stimulate thought and debate on the relation of individual morality to state law.