Reply to: UK ID card.

[TheFaQQer]

Let me guess - he offered 50% discount on Oracle database?

Close - he offered a 100% discount on the database to the US government if they were considering bringing in something like that.

I think I read somewhere that Oracle was founded on the basis of selling an ID database ...........

Oracle was the codename of a project for the CIA that the company founders had all worked on. No idea what it did, though.

Except that on the government's own figures, the vast majority of the estimated 3bn benefit fraud has nothing to do with people having false identity, it is people lying about their circumstances, not who they are, and with even the government admitting ID cards will cast more than 5bn, it's hard to see how any savings will be made, especially as they will be late and over budget.

ID cards are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist

I didn't say that it would make any savings - I said that if it was marketed as such, then people might be more inclined to get one.

If the Heil started broadcasting the message that having one would stop the illegal immigrants and spongers taking your hard earned tax revenue, then the swing in public opinion would be enough to make the project a success. It doesn't have to be any truer than the rest of the shit that they print, but I'm sure that it could be as persuasive.

[Tarquin Farquhar]

Let me guess - he offered 50% discount on Oracle database?

BOGOF?

[Tarquin Farquhar]

In 2002, I saw Larry Ellison give a very convincing presentation about what an ID card could actually do - you need to get something that makes people actually WANT one. Once you do that (and one of his examples was the ability to fly easily), people will start using them - and if you have enough incentives to use them, people would be prepared to pay for them.

Certainly sounds better than sitting in traffic....

I've seen some over-hyped advertising claims but that one takes the biscuit.

[doodab]

In 2002, I saw Larry Ellison give a very convincing presentation about what an ID card could actually do - you need to get something that makes people actually WANT one. Once you do that (and one of his examples was the ability to fly easily), people will start using them

Certainly sounds better than sitting in traffic....

[AtW]

Except that on the government's own figures, the vast majority of the estimated 3bn benefit fraud has nothing to do with people having false identity, it is people lying about their circumstances, not who they are, and with even the government admitting ID cards will cast more than 5bn, it's hard to see how any savings will be made, especially as they will be late and over budget.

£3 bln fraud per year.

£5 bln cost overall, unless its overrun, which certainly will happen.

Not that it would make to get those frauds.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

It's all about marketing - successful or not.

Trying to argue in favour of an ID card because it will reduce terrorism doesn't work - look at Spain.

Unfortunately, the powers that be haven't grasped how they could really be selling the concept of an ID card, e.g.

If we have an ID card, we can cut £1 billion of benefit fraud. That means we can cut taxes, which makes you better off.
.......

Edit - I know that none of my points provides a "justification". The scheme doesn't need justification - it needs to be sold to a sceptical public. Sell it correctly, and people will queue up for them.

Except that on the government's own figures, the vast majority of the estimated 3bn benefit fraud has nothing to do with people having false identity, it is people lying about their circumstances, not who they are, and with even the government admitting ID cards will cast more than 5bn, it's hard to see how any savings will be made, especially as they will be late and over budget.

ID cards are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist

[AtW]

I think I read somewhere that Oracle was founded on the basis of selling an ID database ...........

That was IDentity...

IGMC

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Let me guess - he offered 50% discount on Oracle database?

I think I read somewhere that Oracle was founded on the basis of selling an ID database ...........

[AtW]

In 2002, I saw Larry Ellison give a very convincing presentation about what an ID card could actually do - you need to get something that makes people actually WANT one.

Let me guess - he offered 50% discount on Oracle database?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

It's all about marketing - successful or not.

Trying to argue in favour of an ID card because it will reduce terrorism doesn't work - look at Spain.

Unfortunately, the powers that be haven't grasped how they could really be selling the concept of an ID card, e.g.

• If we have an ID card, we can cut £1 billion of benefit fraud. That means we can cut taxes, which makes you better off.
• If you have an ID card - you can earn loyalty points for doing different things. The more you do, the more money you can save - just like a clubcard / nectar card / credit card.
• If you fly, and don't have an ID card, you must turn up three hours before a flight and be anally probed before we let you on a plane. If you have an ID card, you can turn up 20 minutes beforehand and get straight through to the gate.

In 2002, I saw Larry Ellison give a very convincing presentation about what an ID card could actually do - you need to get something that makes people actually WANT one. Once you do that (and one of his examples was the ability to fly easily), people will start using them - and if you have enough incentives to use them, people would be prepared to pay for them.

Given the amount of loyalty cards that people sign up for because they might save 30p on a tin of beans every six months, people will sign up voluntarily for something that tracks their every move, what they spend, how often and where. The difference is that an ID card will hold less information than Tesco does, but people are scared of the idea of having one because the Daily Heil / Sun / Express tells them that they should be.

Edit - I know that none of my points provides a "justification". The scheme doesn't need justification - it needs to be sold to a sceptical public. Sell it correctly, and people will queue up for them.

Tesco doesn't demand your fingerprints and it has some small incentive to treat you properly, unlike the government. You can sell crap things with good marketing, but only up to a point. Larry Ellison endorsing something would make me seriously suspicious of it.

[TheFaQQer]

There is no point. No-one can provide a single justification for the ID card scheme.

It's all about marketing - successful or not.

Trying to argue in favour of an ID card because it will reduce terrorism doesn't work - look at Spain.

Unfortunately, the powers that be haven't grasped how they could really be selling the concept of an ID card, e.g.

• If we have an ID card, we can cut £1 billion of benefit fraud. That means we can cut taxes, which makes you better off.
• If you have an ID card - you can earn loyalty points for doing different things. The more you do, the more money you can save - just like a clubcard / nectar card / credit card.
• If you fly, and don't have an ID card, you must turn up three hours before a flight and be anally probed before we let you on a plane. If you have an ID card, you can turn up 20 minutes beforehand and get straight through to the gate.

In 2002, I saw Larry Ellison give a very convincing presentation about what an ID card could actually do - you need to get something that makes people actually WANT one. Once you do that (and one of his examples was the ability to fly easily), people will start using them - and if you have enough incentives to use them, people would be prepared to pay for them.

Given the amount of loyalty cards that people sign up for because they might save 30p on a tin of beans every six months, people will sign up voluntarily for something that tracks their every move, what they spend, how often and where. The difference is that an ID card will hold less information than Tesco does, but people are scared of the idea of having one because the Daily Heil / Sun / Express tells them that they should be.

Edit - I know that none of my points provides a "justification". The scheme doesn't need justification - it needs to be sold to a sceptical public. Sell it correctly, and people will queue up for them.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Apparently, you have to live in the north west of England or, work at selected UK airports and, must hold a valid UK passport if you want to apply for a UK ID Card.

Er, what's the ******* point? If I have a UK passport, I dont need a UK ID card!

There is no point. No-one can provide a single justification for the ID card scheme.

[PRC1964]

Nah, that doesnt stack up and misses my point. You have to hold a current UK passport to apply for the card.

The UK ID card allows you to travel EEA countries. Its main objective is proof of ID for UK citizens.

If you have a passport you are IMO unlikely to apply for an ID card.

You're coming at it from the wrong angle.

At the moment you need a passport to get an ID card, but very soon now if you want a passport you will have to have an ID card.

Neither of the two will stop you from being a terrorist, but they will both raise some funds to help pay to keep the banks going.

[Paddy]

Correct but is used as proof of ID by agents and other bodies ie banks and solicitors etc.
Correct.
Not correct. You dont have to give this info according to the application form.
Incorrect, the application form tells you not to include this information.

Again, incorrect. When applying for the card, you provide biometric info ie pic, fingerprints. Medical info & disabilities is not included one jot.

Is correct, just like your driving licence.

Thanks for that... we shall wait and see what they add then.

[BolshieBastard]

Passport does not prove your address.

Correct but is used as proof of ID by agents and other bodies ie banks and solicitors etc.

ID cards hold your primary address,

Correct.

any other address that your own or sleep at.

Not correct. You dont have to give this info according to the application form.

Any address that you regularly stay at (eg girlfriend etc)

Incorrect, the application form tells you not to include this information.

Medical information, disabilities etc

Again, incorrect. When applying for the card, you provide biometric info ie pic, fingerprints. Medical info & disabilities is not included one jot.

It is you responsibility to keep the information up to date, if not it’s a fine or imprisonment.

Is correct, just like your driving licence.