Reply to: Tax System Explained in Beer

[Platypus]

Marriage in this day and age is little more than a piece of paper,

huge I.O.U.

To be cashed in whenever the missus feels a bit neglected

[Not So Wise]

There are lots of studies show how mum and dad being married, (even if they don't actually live together) helps the children become more rounded individuals, achieve better in life etc. as compared to single parent families where the kids are off the rails, generally poorer health, shorter life expectancies, achieve less etc. etc.. These are statistical measurements, so some individuals will buck the trends.

So in general getting single people to pay for married couples is more like getting the criminals to pay for the damage they do to society.

Those types of studies, if looked at closely, are normally done by people trying to promote "traditional marriage", thus highly questionable. Marriage in this day and age is little more than a piece of paper, no different from a couple living together and raising the kids

Kids are turned into "well rounded individuals" if one or more parents has both the time and interest in raising such, nothing more nothing less

[ASB]

Disclaimer: I have no idea as to the accuracy of these figures (but if they're on the interweb they must be true...)

Gingerbread report the following statistics



That's under 25. Lets say 50% are teenagers, and of those, 50% actively set out to become pregnant as a 'lifestyle choice' (what a load of tulip - how many of us rationally mapped out our future at 16?) That's 3% of all single parents.



Making life harder doesn't appear to be the answer to the problem. Maybe making life better is worth a try...

I take some issue with those figures - though I am sure they are accurate it is very easy to misuse them. In terms of young people getting pregnant by choice to boost their accomodation chances undoubtedly it does happen - though I have no idea how much. You certainly cannot attempt to extract them from those numbers. Why? A substantial portion of single parents do not start off that way. They become single parents due to relationship failures.

[Doggy Styles]

Every day, I get more and more in favour of selective human culling.

I see zeity's cunning plan to win hearts and minds is working...

[Moscow Mule]

some of the most unsavoury characters you can imagine.

Every day, I get more and more in favour of selective human culling.

[EternalOptimist]

No, it has rules, and points. Points are easily abused. Most local council employees don't give a tulip if the system is abused, they get paid whatever the outcome.

tis true. They also get a continuous barrage of threats and abuse from some of the most unsavoury characters you can imagine. I am suprised they are not issued with body armour.
I would not blame them for letting some of their 'customers' through on the nod

[Doggy Styles]

We are losing the spirit of self-reliance (again).

The best way to help someone is to encourage them to help themselves. I'm all for those sort of policies.

[Moscow Mule]

I mean it is not a queue in the sense that it is not intended to be unconditionally FIFO.

No, it has rules, and points. Points are easily abused. Most local council employees don't give a tulip if the system is abused, they get paid whatever the outcome.

[Tarquin Farquhar]

of course it is. I should know, I was in it.
it was based on points, and you get points for waiting

I mean it is not a queue in the sense that it is not intended to be unconditionally FIFO.

[EternalOptimist]

It is not a queue.

of course it is. I should know, I was in it.
it was based on points, and you get points for waiting

[Tarquin Farquhar]

What is wrong with it ?
well, if the girl did not have the baby, the ex soldier would have gotten the flat first, because he was waiting longer. He would have gotten it a bit sooner because there would be fewer people jumping the queue in front of him.

It is not a queue.

[mudskipper]

What do you suggest? How do we help the needy whilst not making them benefit dependent, as has happened in the many deprived areas where generation after generation have never worked and drug abuse and crime are rife?

Sure, education is important but the only long term way forward is to create real jobs to provide real wealth and a sense of community and belonging and I don't see that happening any time soon.

There isn't a simple answer. As has been been said, there's a cycle where this happens generation after generation. Not just teenage pregnancies, but crime, drug abuse, long term benefit dependency. But I am sure that making a subset of the poorest people even poorer will make the problem worse, not better. Teenagers from the sink estates need to see that there is a better future for them and to be given a sense of self worth. The education system needs to focus more on real value vocational training for those who want it. And yes, there has to be real jobs at the end of the road. When your teenage mum holds her newborn, she feels for the first time pride - she has achieved something worthwhile. She has the same hopes for her baby as any mum - she doesn't set out to become a bad parent. That's the time to harness her hope, invest in her future, and encourage her to improve the outlook for her baby's sake.

[EternalOptimist]

OK, I'll step up for this unpopular, un-populist reply.

What's wrong with that? If the flats are allocated according to need, then a young baby needs it a whole lot more than a self-reliant single adult.

I think you are thinking not of need but of deserving, in the sense of merit. Fine, but just be aware that that has nothing to do with social housing.

What is wrong with it ?
well, if the girl did not have the baby, the ex soldier would have gotten the flat first, because he was waiting longer. He would have gotten it a bit sooner because there would be fewer people jumping the queue in front of him.

If the girl had been the one who lived above me, she would not have found herself in the postion of bringing up three kids without the parenting skills or the basic knowledge that would prevent you or I throwing poo laden nappies into other peoples space. All the while having different guys coming round every other night.

[Tarquin Farquhar]

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten
comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like
this.

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

.....

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down
and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they
discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

So they assigned the debt to the tenth man anyway. The Tax Collectors took the money off him to pay the bill.

He has a right to his own share of the beer, but he doesn't have the right not to pay his share of the bill, nor to contract out of the pub and drink beer privately.

Then he decided, "sod this, I'm moving to Cyprus". On departure he was assessed for an Exit Tax based on his current wealth and projected future contributions to the general welfare.

[Tarquin Farquhar]

I had a friend who came out of the paratroops after nine years and he was put on a five year wait for a flat, the other girl in my street got a flat a few weeks after having her first baby.

OK, I'll step up for this unpopular, un-populist reply.

What's wrong with that? If the flats are allocated according to need, then a young baby needs it a whole lot more than a self-reliant single adult.

I think you are thinking not of need but of deserving, in the sense of merit. Fine, but just be aware that that has nothing to do with social housing.