Reply to: That Cameron

[stackpole]

Those who think its cool simply to be "European"

Going to Europe is cool. Sitting in a continental-style pavement cafe in the freezing cold in Milton Keynes isn't. It's freezing cold.

BTW Prescott once said he wanted to create a New Tuscany stretching from Hull to Liverpool. What is a New Tuscany?

[DodgyAgent]

I wouldn't say the EU question is quite as bitter within Labour(Anything like it actually), but I said xenophobic in respect of the tories more in the way they handle it. Almost seems to go beyond heated discussion into suicidal, party ending hatred. It's not even rational I think. Xenophobic might a bit strong but whatever it is it's not what I'd personally call particularily attractive to those not on the right wing of the tory party.

The reason that it is not as bitter a topic in labour is because NL wont discuss it. They deal with it with meaningless soundbites. The EU is essentially a battleground between five types of people: Those that believe in statism on a grand scale (the left), those that believe in freedom and democracy (the right), those who believe that the EU can become the second (usually tories), little englanders and protectionist lefties (tories, IT contractors and lefties) and those who dont have the intelligence to see Europe as anything more than not having to swap currency on holiday (Milan), or think its cool simply to be "European"

[snaw]

Why is being Eurosceptic xenophobic? The labour party is equally split by Europe.

I wouldn't say the EU question is quite as bitter within Labour(Anything like it actually), but I said xenophobic in respect of the tories more in the way they handle it. Almost seems to go beyond heated discussion into suicidal, party ending hatred. It's not even rational I think. Xenophobic might a bit strong but whatever it is it's not what I'd personally call particularily attractive to those not on the right wing of the tory party.

[stackpole]

Why is being Eurosceptic xenophobic?

It isn't in the slightest, except to those who believe New Labour nonsense.

[DodgyAgent]

The only thing which you could reasonably assume based on what I said is that I think the tory pary are xenophobic. I'd stand by that, not because I am pro or con the EU but because most tories (The MP's at least) are almost pathological in their complete dismissal of any sort of pro-euro opinion. An issue which has come close to ripping the tories apart over the years and ruined the chances of any vaguely pro-euro tory leadership candidate.

Everything else you said is an assumption, based not on what I think but on what you think I think. And you'd be wrong.

Why is being Eurosceptic xenophobic? The labour party is equally split by Europe.

[snaw]

Your own words sound like you believe it to me snaw, since you are talking about your personal road to Damascus rather than that of Joe Public.

The only thing which you could reasonably assume based on what I said is that I think the tory pary are xenophobic. I'd stand by that, not because I am pro or con the EU but because most tories (The MP's at least) are almost pathological in their complete dismissal of any sort of pro-euro opinion. An issue which has come close to ripping the tories apart over the years and ruined the chances of any vaguely pro-euro tory leadership candidate.

Everything else you said is an assumption, based not on what I think but on what you think I think. And you'd be wrong.

[stackpole]

Strangely enough he's the first tory leader I'd even consider considering...he might well be taking the tories in a direction I might vote for, i.e. away from being a small minded, xenophobic, white, middle class, english male with all the baggage that brings and back to something resembling the centre ground, with a touch of compassion thrown in.

I don't believe I actually said I agree or disagree with any of that so don't go putting words in my mouth for me, thanks all the same.

Your own words sound like you believe it to me snaw, since you are talking about your personal road to Damascus rather than that of Joe Public.

[snaw]

Maybe, but Joe Public thinks it, and Joe Public votes.

I'll tell you. The Tories have had some good policies, but don't get elected because of their image. Having great policies in opposition is truly pointless, like the Lib Dems, so they have recognised the need to get elected in the first place.

For ten years, whatever hard policies the Tories espouse, Labour turn it round on them. For example:

1. Regaining control over immigration is racist

2. Staying out of the euro and the euro constitution is xenophobic

3. Reducing public spending means sacking teachers and nurses

And Joe Public believes this tosh (like snaw).

I don't believe I actually said I agree or disagree with any of that so don't go putting words in my mouth for me, thanks all the same. Especially given I don't recall voting for labour at an election recently.

[John Galt]

I can't help thinking that it may be time that the Tories started trying to educate people and treat them like rational human beings rather than copy the Bliar approach of thinking for them and talking at them. If the general populace believe that Tories will support the wealthier middle and upper classes - explain to them that without these people there will be no economy good or otherwise. Alienating those with money will eventually result in a mass migration (as is happening now) and if the rich aren't there to supply the taxes to support the masses then the masses will not have access to the services they take for granted now. How hard is that to understand really?

[IR35 Avoider]

1. Tories only help the rich

Saw a TV clip of an MP who was campaigning in the last election. He tried to explain to a voter that people who opted to pay for healthcare (and get a refund of half the cost from NHS) would be saving the NHS half the cost of treatment. The voter was emphatically unimpressed, responded that this was just Tories trying to help the rich as usual and this was why she would never vote for them. She couldn't see NHS resources being saved to the benefit of everyone; all she could see was a better-off person being helped. I couldn't help thinking that her hatred of "the rich" was such that if forced to choose between allowing co-payments for a treatment or the state not paying for the treatment for anyone, she would choose the latter. She would rather spite herself than help "the rich."

So while this Howard policy (and school voucher schemes) are perfectly sensible, I think for PR reasons Cameron is right to rule out any policy that allows better-off to add their own money to entitlement from state in order to buy better services. This will make it a lot harder to introduce market forces in health and education though.

[stackpole]

Tories are incompetent with the economy / Labour are doing all right:- Only ******* morons and NL apologists can even say that without blushing or laughing out load.

Maybe, but Joe Public thinks it, and Joe Public votes.

Don't bend the Tory party to your design just to get elected. What is the ******* point?

I'll tell you. The Tories have had some good policies, but don't get elected because of their image. Having great policies in opposition is truly pointless, like the Lib Dems, so they have recognised the need to get elected in the first place.

For ten years, whatever hard policies the Tories espouse, Labour turn it round on them. For example:

1. Regaining control over immigration is racist

2. Staying out of the euro and the euro constitution is xenophobic

3. Reducing public spending means sacking teachers and nurses

And Joe Public believes this tosh (like snaw).

So Cameron wants to put hard policy on the back burner and spend the next four years improving the Tory image, so that Joe Public starts listening to them again and won't automatically say "here we go again". Volunteering to help Blair get his education bill through the commons was a first step. It looks adult and sensible.

Near the next election he'll declare hard policy, when it should be too late for Labour to invert it or, failing that, nick it.

[snaw]

In a strange kinda way what most of you guys on this board thinks doesn't matter in respect of Cameron. If he's gonna win an election he need's to appeal beyond the very narrow spectrum of the people represented by this board, who at the moment make up the majority of the tories supporter's.

If that's gonna happen then some policies are gonna have to change cause it's been consistently proven that the tory party as it stands up till now is unelectable with the policies it has, which I guess the core tory vote is going to find hard to swallow.

Strangely enough he's the first tory leader I'd even consider considering. I'm a bit suspicious of his lack of depth on almost all fronts at the moment but he might well be taking the tories in a direction I might vote for, i.e. away from being a small minded, xenophobic, white, middle class, english male with all the baggage that brings and back to something resembling the centre ground, with a touch of compassion thrown in. Time will tell but I'm not buying the Blair paralells just yet (And he wasn't a bad thing for his first term imo).

[Dundeegeorge]

Get outta here

Whatever the truth of the matter, these are some things that Joe Public thinks:

1. Tories only help the rich
2. Tories are incompetent with the economy
3. Tory voters are all blue rinsed women and retired Colonel Blimps
4. Labour are doing all right
5. Tories just moan at Labour for the sake of it

Unfortunately, the two years of IDS sent them backwards.

Cameron has his work cut out to reverse that lot, but he's started by addressing the last point.

1. Agree that's a view
2. Only ******* morons and NL apologists can even say that without blushing or laughing out load.
3. agree that's a view
4. See 2
5. agree with that viewpoint a little. Instead of sitting on their hands, the Tories should have been ripping NL apart with everything they've got sincer 1997, instead they seem to have gone along largely with NL, just with the occasional snipe, and it does look like sour grapes.

The only way I sould be seriously impressed by Cameron at this stage would be if he was to offer Tony a square go, outside, now.
I think Cameron is another Bliar. If you want to lead the L*b*r*l D*m*cr*ts to power, join them, don't bend the Tory party to your design just to get elected. What is the ******* point?

[stackpole]

Tells me they have a serious image problem which needs addressing.

Whatever the truth of the matter, these are some things that Joe Public thinks:

1. Tories only help the rich
2. Tories are incompetent with the economy
3. Tory voters are all blue rinsed women and retired Colonel Blimps
4. Labour are doing all right
5. Tories just moan at Labour for the sake of it

Unfortunately, the two years of IDS sent them backwards.

Cameron has his work cut out to reverse that lot, but he's started by addressing the last point.

[BobTheCrate]

Sadly I think it does John.