Reply to: Should agents margins be transparent?

[EternalOptimist]

http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...ght=contractor

Good to see attitudes have changed after all this time.

jeez I remember that thread.
all those old names

[gingerjedi]

http://forums.contractoruk.com/busin...ght=contractor

Good to see attitudes have changed after all this time.

[FarmerPalmer]

I've been given the old - its a tough market and rates have dropped, and we are running on a very tight margin etc etc by my pimp to later find they are marking up 33.3% after screwing me down on the rate.

[DodgyAgent]

And? If that seriously bothers some people they need to leave contracting

The "OMG he earns more than me must call a meeting straight away and demand a pay rise right now" are just permies in disguise to me..because that is permie mentality. I just use the information to know how strong/weak my position is at renegotiation time (on top of how well I am doing/how dependant client is on me)

Finding out what other contractors are earning is market analysis for me. Gives me indicators what I should be charging (am I to high? Or to low?) and also gives me pointers to what other areas I might want to look at

For example, in current gig know what many of the contractors are on, it's all in the same ball park as it's centrally controlled by collusion between the agent/client, so even though they are currently getting me cheap (and they know it) and are highly dependant on me (mentioned leaving mid next year to line manager…he nearly had a heart attack) I know there is not much room for negotiation because they want to keep everyone in the same rate range. Now if I did not know about the other contractor rates, would not have figured out about the collusion nor the rate range, thus would have walked into renewal time demanding a raise that they could not afford politically to give me, and thus negotiated myself out of a contract

But in that case he is not better than me, at least at knowing his own worth and negotiating with the agency for the best rate (and yes applies to in reverse situations)

It's not all about how well you do you job from the day you start, it's also about how well you do all the stuff before you sign the dotted line

You put it very well

[gingerjedi]

Sorry, I'm with Dodgy here. If you were happy with the rate when you took the contract that is all that matters. The fact that someone else wasn't happy with the rate and negotiated a better one is your fault not the agency's.

The bottom line is, are you happy with what you're getting? If yes, then stay, if no, then leave. Simple as.

When did I ever say that I was happy with the rate? My wife gave up a well paid job to look after our baby then I found myself benched for months during the worst recession in history.

I took this out of desperation to keep a roof over our heads, it's a tulip job on a tulip rate but there isn't anything else about. On top of that, knowing the belligerent nature of the client I'm a little worried about asking for a rate rise for fear of being canned and ending up on the street.

So before you make asumptions.....

[TheFaQQer]

Fairy muff. Sorry, the pedantism(?) much be catching round here. Just making a bit of a point based on what you said. I am a bit pi$$ed about the exporting of jobs to forign climes for reduced rates at the moment, the majority of this being big player controlled. You'd almost think it was orchestrated.

pedantry

foreign

[threaded]

I think that's up to the agent, seeing as he makes his own business decisions. There are now some agencies in Holland like TFCNL, Headfirst, Fastflex and ikwileenopdracht.nl who are making their margins very clear and open and see this as a competitive strategy; clients and contractors get transparency and it seems those agents are doing very well out of this strategy. However, these agents are quite lean organisations who aren't funding massive HQ offices or top heavy mangement layers. It remains to be seen whether the UK based agents follow their lead. Personally I'm not that bothered by the margin as long as I'm being paid what I feel is a a tulipload of money, but I've found that the agencies who are transparent about their margins are also more trustworthy in other aspects, like timely payment.

Yes, I'm seeing that in Denmark too, and because UK agencies refuse to play ball, they lose out on business.

[Cowboy Bob]

The guy I spoke to was shocked, he said "sorry mate" as if someone had just died, he was genuinely embarrassed about the situation.

No-one gives a flip about a few pence here and there but you've got to admit that 40% is taking the pi$$. If it was 10 or 20% more and I wasn't asked to take a 10% cut a few months back it really wouldn't bother me.

Sorry, I'm with Dodgy here. If you were happy with the rate when you took the contract that is all that matters. The fact that someone else wasn't happy with the rate and negotiated a better one is your fault not the agency's.

The bottom line is, are you happy with what you're getting? If yes, then stay, if no, then leave. Simple as.

[conned tractor]

Strangely enough, I didn't set up a company to do my bit for my beloved England like a good Patriot.

Although if you really want to be pedantic (I think it's a safe bet you do), the work I hire foreign developers for is found outside the UK/EU. So on balance, I'm bringing money into the UK. In fact since the money staying in the UK is actually the margins I put on said foreign workers, I should apply the biggest margins I possibly can.

I'm a hero!

Fairy muff. Sorry, the pedantism(?) much be catching round here. Just making a bit of a point based on what you said. I am a bit pi$$ed about the exporting of jobs to forign climes for reduced rates at the moment, the majority of this being big player controlled. You'd almost think it was orchestrated.

[Not So Wise]

I didnt say not talk about your rate to the client. I said to not talk about it with other contractors because you will always find someone earning more than you.

And? If that seriously bothers some people they need to leave contracting

The "OMG he earns more than me must call a meeting straight away and demand a pay rise right now" are just permies in disguise to me..because that is permie mentality. I just use the information to know how strong/weak my position is at renegotiation time (on top of how well I am doing/how dependant client is on me)

Finding out what other contractors are earning is market analysis for me. Gives me indicators what I should be charging (am I to high? Or to low?) and also gives me pointers to what other areas I might want to look at

For example, in current gig know what many of the contractors are on, it's all in the same ball park as it's centrally controlled by collusion between the agent/client, so even though they are currently getting me cheap (and they know it) and are highly dependant on me (mentioned leaving mid next year to line manager…he nearly had a heart attack) I know there is not much room for negotiation because they want to keep everyone in the same rate range. Now if I did not know about the other contractor rates, would not have figured out about the collusion nor the rate range, thus would have walked into renewal time demanding a raise that they could not afford politically to give me, and thus negotiated myself out of a contract

And how would you react if someone who is better than you is earning less?

But in that case he is not better than me, at least at knowing his own worth and negotiating with the agency for the best rate (and yes applies to in reverse situations)

It's not all about how well you do you job from the day you start, it's also about how well you do all the stuff before you sign the dotted line

[DodgyAgent]

The guy I spoke to was shocked, he said "sorry mate" as if someone had just died, he was genuinely embarrassed about the situation.

No-one gives a flip about a few pence here and there but you've got to admit that 40% is taking the pi$$. If it was 10 or 20% more and I wasn't asked to take a 10% cut a few months back it really wouldn't bother me.

The problem with knowing each others rates is that each and every individual has an entirely subjective opinion as to how they would use and interpret such information. Whilst I would agree that a 40% diffference is an awful lot, the danger is that once you start getting into the whys and wherefores of the situation then it can lead to contractors becoming bitter and twisted.

At what point for example does the differential become "fair" (how I hate that word)? is it 10%, 20% or 30%? why not 16.9898765%?. How do you judge that you are better than someone alse? who says you are better?

In my experience contractors who start whingeing about the pay of others they are usually let go.

The thing about rates is that they bear no relevance to contemporary market conditions at the time that the contract was negotiated. Market conditions change by the second. What you pay for a contractor is what that contractor is worth to the individual at the time.

Each and every contract is negotiated according to availability/suitability of a particular contractor at that time. If a manager is lucky enough to have 5 suitable contractors living within a stones throw of the location he may be fortunate enough to get someone for a low price. If on the other hand the contractor is the only one with the skills available on the day then so be it-pay more.

The fact that in the end some contractors with 20 years of experience get paid less than someone with a quarter of the experience matters not a jot.

As soon as you start getting into an argument over who gets what then its time to move to North Korea where everyone is poor (except that some are less poor than others)

[gingerjedi]

And how would you react if someone who is better than you is earning less?

The guy I spoke to was shocked, he said "sorry mate" as if someone had just died, he was genuinely embarrassed about the situation.

No-one gives a flip about a few pence here and there but you've got to admit that 40% is taking the pi$$. If it was 10 or 20% more and I wasn't asked to take a 10% cut a few months back it really wouldn't bother me.

[DodgyAgent]

"Don't tell anyone your rate nor discuss it with the client"

Typical agency bulltulip to keep both contractors and clients in the dark so agents can maximise their margins

Information is power, for both contractor and client, if they chose to remain ignorant this only benefits the agency to the direct detriment of the other two, hence agency demands for secrecy should be generally ignored

And how would you react if someone who is better than you is earning less?

[DodgyAgent]

"Don't tell anyone your rate nor discuss it with the client"

Typical agency bulltulip to keep both contractors and clients in the dark so agents can maximise their margins

Information is power, for both contractor and client, if they chose to remain ignorant this only benefits the agency to the direct detriment of the other two, hence agency demands for secrecy should be generally ignored

I didnt say not talk about your rate to the client. I said to not talk about it with other contractors because you will always find someone earning more than you.

[gingerjedi]

I bet you now think that you are awfully clever and that your mind is now preoccupied on what everyone else is doing/earning. So someone has come in earning more money than you to do a job that you are showing him what to do.

I would suggest that as in the case of most businesses that this is information that you should not have or that you should simply ignore. You should get on with doing what you are paid to do. Otherwise if you dont like it I am sure that you know what to do.

Your attitude is exactly the same as my agent... funny that.