Reply to: Gender Tests

[Zippy]

If she has any unusual or untoward condition, it's most likely Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.

This is where a person with essentially "normal" male chromosomes (46,XY) has a mutation in the gene that codes the androgen receptor and thus ends up with female genitalia.

Interesting article. There was a very alarming section in there which suggested that nobody knew the best course of action to take to treat these people
"Since 1997, male assignment with early surgery is increasing in popularity, and even the third course of delaying surgery is sometimes followed. Advantages and disadvantages of this course will become apparent over the next two decades."

[OwlHoot]

If she has any unusual or untoward condition, it's most likely Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.

This is where a person with essentially "normal" male chromosomes (46,XY) has a mutation in the gene that codes the androgen receptor and thus ends up with female genitalia.

[Zippy]

I agree. I just don't know how you reach a certain decision as to whether to classify a 'person of less than certain gender' as a man or a woman.

OK, for our own bedtime purposes it should be easy enough, but for purposes of law, rules and science it's a bit different.

Percentages. Seperate class for transgender/intersexual individuals who fall outside those percentages? Is that going too far and maybe we just have to say (as with us mere mortals) - sorry you are not fast/ugly/pretty enough.

[Mich the Tester]

I started to think that way, then remembered I've probably been infected with the PC disease . The answer of course is no, as I believe the theory of evolution.

With so much money involved in sport, law suits etc. you have to have rules, and that is the way it is going to continue to go.

I agree. I just don't know how you reach a certain decision as to whether to classify a 'person of less than certain gender' as a man or a woman.

OK, for our own bedtime purposes it should be easy enough, but for purposes of law, rules and science it's a bit different.

[Zippy]

Yep, the testosterone levels are set high in the assumption that they're outside the natural range an so steroid users should be caught. Trouble is, who knows for sure how much testosterone a person can have in their body naturally? People naturally have differing levels of various chemicals. Those with a naturally high level of testosterone have a good capacity for building lean muscle mass, and are therefore likely to be succesful in sports involving speed and strength; is natural ability a form of cheating?

I started to think that way, then remembered I've probably been infected with the PC disease . The answer of course is no, as I believe the theory of evolution.

With so much money involved in sport, law suits etc. you have to have rules, and that is the way it is going to continue to go.

[Mich the Tester]

No, not easy. I suppose we will be forced down the biochemistry route where limits are set (e.g. for hormones) which define which races you can participate in. I think this already happens with testosterone levels?

Yep, the testosterone levels are set high in the assumption that they're outside the natural range an so steroid users should be caught. Trouble is, who knows for sure how much testosterone a person can have in their body naturally? People naturally have differing levels of various chemicals. Those with a naturally high level of testosterone have a good capacity for building lean muscle mass, and are therefore likely to be succesful in sports involving speed and strength; is natural ability a form of cheating?

[Zippy]

In a way I'd like to agree. Trouble is, do we exclude people whose gender is less than 100% certain from participating in competitive sports? I'd say we shouldn't. Do we force a person who has some female, some male attributes to compete as a man? hmmm, that would surely put them at a disavantage.

No, not easy. I suppose we will be forced down the biochemistry route where limits are set (e.g. for hormones) which define which races you can participate in. I think this already happens with testosterone levels?

[Mich the Tester]

From the athletics standpoint - does she have these attributes and does she gain an advantage from having them?

In a way I'd like to agree. Trouble is, do we exclude people whose gender is less than 100% certain from participating in competitive sports? I'd say we shouldn't. Do we force a person who has some female, some male attributes to compete as a man? hmmm, that would surely put them at a disavantage.

[Platypus]

From a personal standpoint - she is was she thinks she is

So I AM a teapot? Phew.

[Zippy]

According to Mrs Tester, who wrote a thesis on transsexuality and transgender issues in psychiatric care, the problem is that 'male' and 'female' are actually two extremes on a sliding scale. Most people are found at one of the extremes, but some are somewhere in between. Some people who appear to be anatomically female may have male chromosomes or a brain that's more like a male brain. Same goes the other way around.

If someone has a high testosterone level, a brain shaped and working like that of a man, considerable muscle bulk, male chromosomes and a vagina, is that a woman or a man?
It is'nt as easy as some people think.

From the athletics standpoint - does she have these attributes and does she gain an advantage from having them?
From a personal standpoint - she is was she thinks she is

[Mich the Tester]

Those too can fall outside the ranges that would normally be unequivocally male or female. And if we are talking about the possibility of eliminating a sportsperson, we are definitely talking about anatomy, not identity; i.e. maybe the doc said she was a girl, and she feels like a woman ... that's not the point.

The problem lies in the fact that we think we know what we mean by male and female, but we do not actually have a universally applicable definition.

And yes, it is unfortunate and there is a human being at the centre of this.

According to Mrs Tester, who wrote a thesis on transsexuality and transgender issues in psychiatric care, the problem is that 'male' and 'female' are actually two extremes on a sliding scale. Most people are found at one of the extremes, but some are somewhere in between. Some people who appear to be anatomically female may have male chromosomes or a brain that's more like a male brain. Same goes the other way around.

If someone has a high testosterone level, a brain shaped and working like that of a man, considerable muscle bulk, male chromosomes and a vagina, is that a woman or a man?
It is'nt as easy as some people think.

[Platypus]

[fckvwls]

A playboy centrefold is the only way to be sure.

[realityhack]

Happens more often than you'd think, the Doctor usually makes the decision on whether or not the child will be "male" or "female".

(Seriously) I have heard of this happening - and if this is the case she's probably had to put up with this for most of her life, shame, but I guess they have to do it.

[The Lone Gunman]

Exactly.

Media are turning it into a circus freak show.

Only one person loses out in all this.

The way this has been handled is a disgrace.
She seems remarkably calm for all the fuss.
She probably has yet to realise the implications of it all. It is bound to damage her in some way at some stage.