Reply to: IT jobs 'lost to cheap labour' -

[NickNick]

Anyone who thinks you can regulate multi-nationals is living in cloud-cuckoo land. If the City puts in a tough regulatory environment, watch all the banks and financial companies HQs go elsewhere.
And stop dreaming that we can go back to making things, in general we were crap at that in the 1st place.

Notably SOX and the impact that may have had in moving companies off the US exchange into the UK.

[sasguru]

...er, what???

Those bits of your post are a joke, right?

Definitely for the skills bit, in your case

[PM-Junkie]

...Finally there is something unedifying about contractors bleating that the "government doesnt look after them". Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that contractors should fight things like IR35 and encourage training in technology, you guys dont really have anything to complain about. You have been gifted a set of skills and market circumstances that give you a fantastic standard of living for little capital investment and you carry virtually no responsibility for the work you do- not something to whine about.

...er, what???

Those bits of your post are a joke, right?

[sasguru]

Anyone who thinks you can regulate multi-nationals is living in cloud-cuckoo land. If the City puts in a tough regulatory environment, watch all the banks and financial companies HQs go elsewhere.
And stop dreaming that we can go back to making things, in general we were crap at that in the 1st place.

[NickNick]

Mich is surely right that it is more racist to pay third-world workers low wages than it is to complain about companies doing that when our countries' rules say that they shouldn't.


But it is beginning to look like the old Usenet Godwin's Law: sooner or later somebody draws a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis. Try to discuss outsourcing to India, and somebody will accuse you of racism. (Try to discuss outsourcing without mentioning India, and you will be unable to get to the point).

All I was tyring to point out was that in using racist terms to define an arguemtne you lose all credibility. Not that being against outsourcing is inherantly racist.

[Mich the Tester]

I think my original point is being missed here. I haven’t claimed that capitalism is wrong or should be regulated; after all, capitalism and free markets have given me, Mrs Tester and indeed my parents (who also own their own business) a lifestyle we could only have dreamt of 20 years ago. It has worked for us. It’s now working for Mrs Tester’s younger brother and his girlfriend, who’s building a small but growing business in teaching flower arranging and providing arrangements for weddings, top class restaurants and hotels, house sales etc; her business started from her shed 18 months ago with a loan from me to buy a van; she now employs 3 people and has moved into smart new premises where she can hold more courses for more people as well as producing the goods for her customers.

My point though is that with the enormous mess that’s been made in the economy recently, governments are facing stronger and stronger demands from their public to bring back regulation of businesses, especially multinationals, and they cannot ignore those demands while still getting themselves elected. People don’t want banks to be allowed to get so big they can endanger entire economies. They don’t want to see huge bonuses being paid out to so-called directors, who are mostly actually salaried managers, for what they see as failure. The demands for protection of ‘local jobs’ are growing everywhere. Voters all over the world demand that governments take action on these matters, as well as taking action on environmental matters. I don’t personally think that government has the solutions, but so many people do think so that I think it’s inevitable that economies are going to be more regulated in the coming years than they have been up to now.

It’s one thing to complain about that, but perhaps the true capitalist just finds a way to do well and make money in changed circumstances.

[NickNick]

Ah yes, the racism card. I wondered how long it would take before some cretin came online claiming that people who have an issue with offshoring or outsourcing are either racists or right wing.

There are a few idiots on this board. Congratulations - you have just made them look like Nobel Prize winners.

Ever thought that maybe, just maybe, some people are against outsourcing/offshoring based on OUR EXPERIENCE? Or are you such an arrogant cretin that you think your experience is the only one that's valid so everyone who disagrees with you must by definition be a racist right wing nutter?

Thanks for your kind words.

Not for a minute did I assume that no one else here had not gone through the same thing. All I was pointing out is that it is one thing to object to off-shoring and another to descend into casual racism to do so.

[DodgyAgent]

Rightly or wrongly, the age of liberalisation has come to an end, and it's time to figure out how to make money in a more regulated economy.

I hope that you are right but it will have to come from continental Europe
as I can't see the UK taking the lead.

Fixing the Capitalist system by regulation makes more sense than over taxing
the working and middle classes in order to compensate the losers by means
of welfare benefits.

Whether you replace Permanent jobs or Contracting jobs with offshore companies you are still replacing EEC workers.

The reason the UK government does not care about contractors is because
99% of contractors do not or can't claim unemployment benefits as they work for their Ltd companies
Contractors spend their war chests until they become bankrupt.

If you are currently on the bench are you included in the unemployment
figures?
If not why should the government care whether your job has been replaced
by much cheapness.

Most MPs whether in the UK or Europe have second jobs as directors of companies. It is therefore in their own interest NOT to regulate companies.
MPs are in politics to make money and the more EEC workers they can replace
with cheap offshore labour the more money they can make for their companies.[/QUOTE]


What an extraordinary diatribe.

First of all there is nothing wrong with capitalism. The problem is when people form themselves into groups or positions whereby they are beyond the reach of capitalist dynamics ( monopolies.. governments to name but two).

Capitalism is about giving and receiving choice in a market environment. We can shop around for food which makes the production and selling of food products extremely efficient. We cannot do the same with healthcare and education, because they are run by monopolies with their own agendas.

The challenge we face with capitalism is that it is crudely measured by money.How do we apply the laws of capitalism whilst at the same time redistributing wealth in order to reduce the reliance of people on the amount of money they earn?. For example no one since Keith Joseph has bothered to look at a voucher system for parents to choose education for their children.

As far as MPs are concerned they are driven by power and status. As long as there is a fully accountable democratic (Capitalist) system in place then they cannot do anything that is not endorsed by the likes of you and I.

With regards to regulating companies, a balance needs to be struck. I personally do not believe that any company should be allowed to grow to be big enough to become a liability to the economy in the event that it goes bust. Part of an MPs make up is to fiddle and regulate because doing so gives them power, anyway they have duty to regulate companies.

Finally there is something unedifying about contractors bleating that the "government doesnt look after them". Whilst I wholeheartedly agree that contractors should fight things like IR35 and encourage training in technology, you guys dont really have anything to complain about. You have been gifted a set of skills and market circumstances that give you a fantastic standard of living for little capital investment and you carry virtually no responsibility for the work you do- not something to whine about.

[Brussels Slumdog]

End of Liberalisation

Rightly or wrongly, the age of liberalisation has come to an end, and it's time to figure out how to make money in a more regulated economy.[/QUOTE]

I hope that you are right but it will have to come from continental Europe
as I can't see the UK taking the lead.

Fixing the Capitalist system by regulation makes more sense than over taxing
the working and middle classes in order to compensate the losers by means
of welfare benefits.

Whether you replace Permanent jobs or Contracting jobs with offshore companies you are still replacing EEC workers.

The reason the UK government does not care about contractors is because
99% of contractors do not or can't claim unemployment benefits as they work for their Ltd companies
Contractors spend their war chests until they become bankrupt.

If you are currently on the bench are you included in the unemployment
figures?
If not why should the government care whether your job has been replaced
by much cheapness.

Most MPs whether in the UK or Europe have second jobs as directors of companies. It is therefore in their own interest NOT to regulate companies.
MPs are in politics to make money and the more EEC workers they can replace
with cheap offshore labour the more money they can make for their companies.

[DimPrawn]

Get ready to start living in corrugated iron shanty towns chaps!

[darmstadt]

With the demographics in Europe, multi-nats know they are on to a loser. In India 75% of the pop are under 25 with a rising income. Now there's a market. If you had no nationalist thoughts where would you rather be?

Think like a CEO, man, FFS!

Yep, a rising income which will slowly reach the same levels of the people they have replaced as they're going to want to have that same standard of living. What this basically means is that eventually the 3rd world countries will become 1st world and vice versa. Get ready to start living in corrugated iron shanty towns chaps!

[Francko]

. If the UK can stop producing lots of media studies people and start using the scientific and technical know-how of it's best universities to develop the kind of technologies the world wats to buy then the UK's future could be very bright.

They should also improve grammar studies

[threaded]

Interesting. Do you have a link please?

Yes.

[threaded]

Well the multinational plan is to buy a good at third world prices and sell it to first world prices. Talking about strategy and value creation. Not even sasguru could come up with a better plan.

* To be fair that is what happened a long time ago in the textile sector. They buy rubbish made in china at chinese prices but they try to sell it to you at europe prices. That is until I realised that it's all the same rubbish and then I just bought directly that non-branded chinese clothing at chinese prices. Now european/american clothing manufacturers are complaining about unfair competition

Aaaaactually. Britain made mass produced crap that looked a lot like the quality stuff from China.

Then the tables turned.

Such is life.

[expat]

"IBM workers in India earn an average $5,000 a year, compared with between $50,000 and $80,000 for a similar job in the US."

That's my point. They then charge the customer the same and pocket the difference. It goes on because western conmen know that most of the Indian techies can't just get on a plane and move to the US or Europe because of visa regulations, as they undoubtedly would if they could. Even those that do manage to come here are paid a lot less than westerners, and are often brought in on 'work experience projects' which allow their employer to get round local regulations.

So this is abusing Indian employees as well as European employees? Admirably comprehensive shafting.