Reply to: Time to abolish the NHS?

[the_duderama]

Awesome, so does this mean that I'd be spending 20% of my income on private health care insurance like the Americans whilst still paying buttloads of tax, only for them not to validate my claim because the condition or treatement is not covered?

What about the decent people who can't afford treatement, such as a friends mother who worked at the co-op all her life and then got sacked cause she was off work for 6 months with breast cancer?

Great ideas guys, keep them comming!

[centurian]

That is one of the major issues with the NI system - people like you think that you have paid into a fund that will cover you when you need it.

What has really happened is that you have paid to cover the people that needed it over the last few years. There is no money set aside to cover you now.

Paid for part of it

The rest being charged to the exploding national debt credit card.

NHS Spending has doubled in the past 10 years - sustainable under a boom, but now looking extremely expensive considering the outputs haven't doubled. In fact some areas have gone into reverse (dentists, out of hours cover, drug provision, small local hospitals etc.)

[ASB]

Do you really believe that NI contributions are somehow "segregated" from general taxation?

There's just one pot of (rapidly diminishing) tax take. You're a contractor, you should know that.

Strictly that's not entirely true. There is a devious system whereby a certain amount of NI contributions (not very much) is specifically routed to specific agencies. This allows the funding myth to be perpertuated and a politician not actually lying when they trot out the familiar lines.

[expat]

And a crucial difference, in France the cost to employees of social security is double the amount in the UK (roughly 22% compared to around 11%).

The NHS is far from being perfect, but you get what you pay for...

It doesn't matter whose side of the paysheet the contributions go on, they are paid from the payroll bill whether you call them employee's or employer's.

I am staggered to see a contractor of all people try that fake arithmetic. Who do you think pays the employer's contributions? OK, the employer: but where does the employer take the money from? The Tooth Fairy? No, from the payroll. I.e. from the employees.

[TykeMerc]

Only real reason their system works so much better is their management of it is/has been a lot better and it did not have for 20 years of successive governments (mid 70's to mid 90's) butchering it for money and then 15 years of government just tossing money at it while giving it random superficial politically motivated "targets"

That's a fair assessment.

I share the opinion that the NHS needs significant reform in its management, the system itself is sound, but the organisation is bloated, overly beaurocratic, slow and inefficient.
I would not like to see us lose a taxpayer funded healthcare system, I would however like to see us get vastly better value for our money which is perfectly achievable.

[Toastiness]

The French system is not private, all long term/serious/costly medical problems are fully covered, minor incidental stuff is 70% covered and only a small charges are allowed to be passed to the patient (similar to prescription charge here) and the 3 main insurance companies are non profit groups.

Basically it's the NHS (which it was modelled after) with the National Insurance part not controlled directly by the government.

And a crucial difference, in France the cost to employees of social security is double the amount in the UK (roughly 22% compared to around 11%).

The NHS is far from being perfect, but you get what you pay for...

[TimberWolf]

We would be a healthier nation if we removed medical care, whether private or public. It might take a few generations though.

More realistic solution: cap medical practitioners salaries. They are too highly paid and feed off the vulnerable like leeches and it is sickening.

[bobhope]

I did, via NI contributions ...

Do you really believe that NI contributions are somehow "segregated" from general taxation?

There's just one pot of (rapidly diminishing) tax take. You're a contractor, you should know that.

[Moscow Mule]

girth

<puerile>
15?

You, sir, have a woman's girth.
</puerile>

[Not So Wise]

The fact that healthcare is free means that many people are now abusing the system by not taking responsibility for their own health.

Fictitious correlation, case to point, USA has most expensive healthcare costs in the world (in charges directly to the individual and insurance costs) and yet is one of the unhealthiest nations in the world

The number one problem with the NHS is and always has been a problem of (mis) management

Be it to much paperwork, tons more administration/managerial staff than actual medical staff to deal with paperwork, constantly changing political priorities, over ambitious and mismanaged IT projects so forth

With it's current budgets, if the NHS was run properly, with decent long term planning it would be providing a health care service that would be the envy of the world

Only way for that to happen would be to re unify it (do away with PCT's), under a central controlling body that has clear guidelines on what it's long term objectives are, cut down on the paperwork and red tape (and get rid of the associated staff) and block successive government's from interfering (aka no government appointments to the head of the NHS every 4 years)

But would say what we have right now is 1000 times better than the US system which is what some (especially insurance and private medical) want over here and anyone who personally wants such a system here "because they can afford it" have clearly never experienced the US system, no one can afford that, even if you are a millionaire, because if you get something that's your insurance company decide they don't have to pay out on (which will be a lot) you will be a pauper long before you die and your grandchildren will still be paying your medical bill's years after you are gone

sasguru make your mind up, either you want private system or you don't.

The French system is not private, all long term/serious/costly medical problems are fully covered, minor incidental stuff is 70% covered and only a small charges are allowed to be passed to the patient (similar to prescription charge here) and the 3 main insurance companies are non profit groups.

Basically it's the NHS (which it was modelled after) with the National Insurance part not controlled directly by the government.

Only real reason their system works so much better is their management of it is/has been a lot better and it did not have for 20 years of successive governments (mid 70's to mid 90's) butchering it for money and then 15 years of government just tossing money at it while giving it random superficial politically motivated "targets"

[expat]

According to WHO, France has the best healthcare system in the world. They are a country with a similar sized economy and population. Can we not learn from them?

No, we can't. We can't learn from anybody else. The British, or I may possibly mean "the English" here, are pathologically incapable of learning from anywhere else, probably because they don't admit that there is anywhere else, at least anywhere else that has got anything right.

There are exceptions of course; but they are not to be found living here.

[lambrini_socialist]

About 15 I would guess. Your age and IQ, that is.

girth

[sasguru]

come on, how can anyone NOT post innuendo when reading the words: "I was thinking of round-the-world sailors"? and as for your priapic avatar...well i'll leave that for your (NHS) psychotherapist....

About 15 I would guess. Your age and IQ, that is.

[conned tractor]

I was in France a couple of days before Christmas with my family and suffered an ankle injury whilst running back to the hotel to get the camera. I jumped over a small (about 12") hedge as a shortcut and there happened to be an ornamental boulder on the other side and I went over on my ankle. Hobbled about for that evening but by the next day I couldn't put any weight on it whatsoever and it had ballooned up.

So took a taxi to local hospital in Paris suburb and was overall pleasantly surprised with the service received. The hospital itself was not the cleanest i've ever seen in such places as coridors with bits of peeling paint etc, but wasn't terrible.

I was seen by a nurse, Xrays taken and checked by consultant, prescription given (for a support to be bought at local pharmacy) and back out within about 3 or so hours, which I expected to be worse. They told me that they would send the bill to my home address which I recieved about a month or so later.

I was amazed that seeing the consultant, xrays, prescription all came to a grand total of 28 Euros. I was expecting the bill to be far more than this. Overall not a bad experience, and pleasant enough (for Parisians anyhow).

Although my pregnant wife ended up pushing me around disneyland in a rented wheelchair for the next two days. But that is another story.

If they would charge this amount in the UK then I would be more than happy to pay.

[lambrini_socialist]

Good to see we've got to the personal insults stage already

come on, how can anyone NOT post innuendo when reading the words: "I was thinking of round-the-world sailors"? and as for your priapic avatar...well i'll leave that for your (NHS) psychotherapist....