Reply to: Bloody cats!

[scaryfast]

I don't mind cats, but I can't do with them tulipting in my veg patch.

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Toxoplasmosis yet... Cat tulip's full of it and you don't want that in your pregnant wife or your kids (or you).

I stuck one of those motion sensing water guns in my garden - it's fairly effective if you move it around occasionally (neighbours don't seem to mind being soaked every time they go out). It's the noise that scares the cats as much as the water.

A low powered electric fence 6 inch off the ground is probably cheaper than keeping your garden covered in lion tulip...

[Mich the Tester]

You're talking to someone else, not me. I do treat all animals with humanity.

It is a false trap to demand that I point out something called "nature" somewhere. It is sensible to describe a population of cats as "natural" when they support themselves by predation on local animals; and meaningful to describe a population of cats as "unnatural" when they are supported by people buying them tins of Kit-e-Kat and maintaining them in numbers a million times what the prey population could support. That makes sense and does not require me to point to some utopian bucolic paradise.

Furthermore, these people are not doing it in order to achieve some considered aim on their own land, so it is specious to remind me that cats keep down rats and so save grain. As I said, I know that, I have done so myself: admittedly not in "nature" because the grain I was concerned about was the stuff I bought for my hens....

I'm OK with people keeping cats because they want to pet them, that's none of my business. They could keep them in their house, as many urban flat-dwellers do. But why do they assume that it is up to me to allow that their pets will lurk in my garden, and do things there that I would not allow the neighbours themselves to do? What gets me about it is the deliberate abandonment of responsibility: the consequence of them keeping cats and allowing them to roam free is, apparently, not their concern. But I strongly suspect that if I took an active hand myself in keeping their animals out of my land, they would regard that as their concern.

Speaking of unwelcome animals on my land, if you want to speak of farming I would ask you how much patience most farmers would have with that? Generally they just shoot anything they don't like. I even knew one farmer who shot his own son's new pedigree sheepdog as soon as he saw it on his land (his son, who farmed next door, was coming to visit him: something he didn't do again for a long time). Compared to that, a water pistol to deter seems pretty mild.

I know very few farmers who hate cats; most of them around our way have a few cats, because they want to keep mice from their grain stores. Those farmers who do hate cats generally hate people too, and often treat their own animals as objects of industrial production.

[expat]

What "nature"? Where is it?

You could argue the same for the number of pigs, cows, chickens, sheep, goat, horses, donkeys, mules, swans, ducks, pigeons, pheasants, grouse, rabbits, hares and all the other delicious animals we like to eat. people have found a purpose for many animals; in the cats of cats it's companionship and control of vermin; in many other cases, it's to eat them, their milk and use their skins or fur for clothing and their bones for making soap. In return we should treat all animals with humanity, while accepting the inevitable choice to kill some for the sake of eating meat.

You're talking to someone else, not me. I do treat all animals with humanity.

It is a false trap to demand that I point out something called "nature" somewhere. It is sensible to describe a population of cats as "natural" when they support themselves by predation on local animals; and meaningful to describe a population of cats as "unnatural" when they are supported by people buying them tins of Kit-e-Kat and maintaining them in numbers a million times what the prey population could support. That makes sense and does not require me to point to some utopian bucolic paradise.

Furthermore, these people are not doing it in order to achieve some considered aim on their own land, so it is specious to remind me that cats keep down rats and so save grain. As I said, I know that, I have done so myself: admittedly not in "nature" because the grain I was concerned about was the stuff I bought for my hens....

I'm OK with people keeping cats because they want to pet them, that's none of my business. They could keep them in their house, as many urban flat-dwellers do. But why do they assume that it is up to me to allow that their pets will lurk in my garden, and do things there that I would not allow the neighbours themselves to do? What gets me about it is the deliberate abandonment of responsibility: the consequence of them keeping cats and allowing them to roam free is, apparently, not their concern. But I strongly suspect that if I took an active hand myself in keeping their animals out of my land, they would regard that as their concern.

Speaking of unwelcome animals on my land, if you want to speak of farming I would ask you how much patience most farmers would have with that? Generally they just shoot anything they don't like. I even knew one farmer who shot his own son's new pedigree sheepdog as soon as he saw it on his land (his son, who farmed next door, was coming to visit him: something he didn't do again for a long time). Compared to that, a water pistol to deter seems pretty mild.

[Mich the Tester]

Yes but that predation is not what domestic cats are doing.

And I don't think I did pretend that. Clearing the trees does not in itself change the basic pattern of predation (with the possible exception of the midgie), artificially supporting predator populations over a million times higher than what is found in "nature" does.

What "nature"? Where is it?

You could argue the same for the number of pigs, cows, chickens, sheep, goat, horses, donkeys, mules, swans, ducks, pigeons, pheasants, grouse, rabbits, hares and all the other delicious animals we like to eat. people have found a purpose for many animals; in the cats of cats it's companionship and control of vermin; in many other cases, it's to eat them, their milk and use their skins or fur for clothing and their bones for making soap. In return we should treat all animals with humanity, while accepting the inevitable choice to kill some for the sake of eating meat.

[expat]

How about other predators like eagles, falcons etc, which wre once very common but have at times almost become extinct (happily they’ve come back from the brink in the countryside); it doesn’t matter which animal does the predatory stuff, but it has to be done.

Oh, and don't pretend that we really have anything 'natural' left in most of Europe. Even the fells of Northern Britain have a man made habitat, as the forests of the past were cleared for farming; that's changed the soil, the micro and meso climate and the ecology.

Yes but that predation is not what domestic cats are doing.

And I don't think I did pretend that. Clearing the trees does not in itself change the basic pattern of predation (with the possible exception of the midgie), artificially supporting predator populations over a million times higher than what is found in "nature" does.


I love the countryside, it's where I grew up (and I don't mean some village with a village green and pub etc) and I am pleased to say that I have seen wildcats when I was young. I don't complain about the countryside, and I have in the past, when I lived in the country, kept a cat to keep the rodents down. Actually a terrier is better but that's another story. That's not what I'm talking about now (I'm in the town, not the country), so please don't run off at the mouth insulting me for being all kinds of ignorant selfish townie.

[Mich the Tester]

Hear Hear @ Mitch, nimbies with TOO MUCH time on their hands. Perhaps they would like the countryside tidied up too, all those pooing animals everywhere!

Yep, and the yups who bought a farmhouse up the road have now issued complaints about the smell of dung, the farm machinery on the roads and the chickens that wake them in the mornings, while keeping guard dogs that regularly stray onto the road and have actually bitten people cycling to a local restaurant. I don’t usually consider myself a bumpkin, but in their case I really wish they’d f**k off back to the city. Then we have the cat haters whingeing about turd, when the very same cats control mice, rats and even rabbits which would possibly devastate the production of grain. Whichever way you look at it, cats, dogs, cows, pigeons and dung are a part of country life, and that's the life for me.

Those of us who really love the European countryside appreciate the myriad pongs, sounds and sights that accompany the production of food for half a billion people and accept that a bit of cat poo or the noise of tractors is a small price to pay for the luxury of being able to choose what we eat each day; a luxury which more than half the world's population cannot afford.

[Mich the Tester]

No, they haven't: in their sheer numbers and their domestic feeding they are quire unnatural predators. In the Highlands where they still exist they have populations of between 8 and 30 individuals per 100 square kilometers: that would be one or two families in our whole town, not one or more cats per house. In the wild, the "food chain" is a very shallow pyramid: predators are very rare, and there they do only take the weaker prey. Here there is a cat behind every tree, and one sitting on every fence. The whole area is a minefield for prey animals, and that is not natural.

I know, neither is our town, and I should go and live in the country. Practical problems there though.

How about other predators like eagles, falcons etc, which wre once very common but have at times almost become extinct (happily they’ve come back from the brink in the countryside); it doesn’t matter which animal does the predatory stuff, but it has to be done.

Oh, and don't pretend that we really have anything 'natural' left in most of Europe. Even the fells of Northern Britain have a man made habitat, as the forests of the past were cleared for farming; that's changed the soil, the micro and meso climate and the ecology.

[expat]

Hear Hear @ Mitch, nimbies with TOO MUCH time on their hands. Perhaps they would like the countryside tidied up too, all those pooing animals everywhere!

Do you realise what you have just said? NIMBY = not in my back yard. Well yes, it is my back yard, that's why I feel able to opine on it.

And for the countryside, see my reply to Mich on natural predator populations.

[expat]

Long ago there were wild cats in Europe, and there still are in a few parts of the Highlands. Nowadays, there are hardly any wild cats, but domestic cats have taken over their predatory role; a role which is essential in terms of maintaining healthy, naturally selected bird populations. Domestic cats have, like it or not, become a part of the ecology of Europe.

No, they haven't: in their sheer numbers and their domestic feeding they are quire unnatural predators. In the Highlands where they still exist they have populations of between 8 and 30 individuals per 100 square kilometers: that would be one or two families in our whole town, not one or more cats per house. In the wild, the "food chain" is a very shallow pyramid: predators are very rare, and there they do only take the weaker prey. Here there is a cat behind every tree, and one sitting on every fence. The whole area is a minefield for prey animals, and that is not natural.

I know, neither is our town, and I should go and live in the country. Practical problems there though.

[Pogle]

I just provide mine with a litter tray - doesn’t stop other cats crapping in my garden, but that doesn’t really bother me.

[Bagpuss]

Hear Hear @ Mitch, nimbies with TOO MUCH time on their hands. Perhaps they would like the countryside tidied up too, all those pooing animals everywhere!

My Dad told the woman he'd have a strong word with the cats and tell them never to go in her garden again

[Drewster]

........As for birds, the only birds that get killed by mice are either stupid, slow, old, or weak youngsters who’ve left the nest before they can fly properly........

Brings to mind the old Poster/T-Shirt:
"I'm on a Pussy Hunt"

Sorry Mich - I know it was jsut a typo!

[Mich the Tester]

After a cat hater arrived in our neighbourhood, all the cat owners kept their cats indoors. Not long after, complaints of mice in garages and kitchens were sent to the council, and a few people even complained about seeing rats around the green bins. The advice of our CDA (conservative) council was quite simple; let the cats outside. Since then there have been no problems with mice or rats.

As for birds, the only birds that get killed by mice are either stupid, slow, old, or weak youngsters who’ve left the nest before they can fly properly. Long ago there were wild cats in Europe, and there still are in a few parts of the Highlands. Nowadays, there are hardly any wild cats, but domestic cats have taken over their predatory role; a role which is essential in terms of maintaining healthy, naturally selected bird populations. Domestic cats have, like it or not, become a part of the ecology of Europe.

As for keeping cats away from your valued plants or childrens’ play areas, I’d recommend cat pepper, or alternatively, used ground coffee; cats hate getting the grainy coffee between their ‘toes’; it's good for your soil too. I'd also say that if you have an uncovered sandpit, or large chunks of exposed soil with no undergrowth as many people in NL have, you're effectively making your garden into a public convenience for every furry animal in a 2km radius who needs to have a dump. Undergrowth or a sturdy mulch of tree bark makes it much harder for a cat to bury his deposits.

As for the crapping issue; why do you think the soil is brown? Soil is a mixture of sand and turd. Mouse turd, worm turd, rabbit turd, cat turd, bacterial turd, bird turd, insect turd, agricultural turd and any turd you might buy in the form of manure. If you mess about in the garden, you’re going to get covered in turd, so you’re going to have to wash your hands anyway.

Unfortunately, many cat haters take an irrational approach of trying to force cat owners to 'keep your pets indoors' or even threatening to kill someone else's pet; it's actually much easier to just ask a cat owner for advice, seeing as cat owners often know a lot more about cat behaviour than cat haters. Perhaps that's human nature though; protest and start fights instead of listening to one another and working out a deal.

[Bagpuss]

My parents have cats and a neighbour has taken upon herself to scoop up poo (any poo including dog poo) and place it on my parents drive. IMHO this is very petty, cats don't soil anywhere like dogs, and they bury what they do moreover, my parents cats don't even go in that garden, they are very lazy and hardly ever roam. I have never seen a cat just sh1t on a pavement, they always bury it.

I don't have cats, but next doors cats often pop by, I've never seen any sh1t let alone trod in any.

[Scary]

Oh sorry forgot to add - he keeps pigeons, right mess they make everywhere. Was going to be civil and do a deal. She will keep the cat out of his garden if he keeps his pigeons out of hers.

Neighbours !

Cats, pigeons - I'm sure there's a joke there somewhere.