Reply to: The 10 people most responsible for the recession

[Ruprect]

Spongebob, that is a splendid avatar.

[spongebob]

I want to know how George Bush got on that list. I didn't know he was party to any serious economic decisions.

[Bagpuss]

There were organisations such as the Nationwide bs who were still operating to a sensible model, as many banks appeared to be. However the problem lies with a parallel market that was operating. A market where many organisations were happily opening themselves up to self cert (self lie in many cases) and borrowers who fell outside their normal lending policies. This was the market of the mortgage broker, a subprime sales market that has had a large part to play in this boom/bust. These shady practices that the mainstream banks were complicent, should have been regulated/controlled whatever.

[Mich the Tester]

How about the financially niave general public? People who thought a bedsit in Brixton for 250k was "a bargain". At a time when sensible people were doubting these overvaluations many idiots werer taking out 100% plus self cert mortagages, bacuase it was "different this time". Many leaving themselves little or no room to manouvre should things go pear shaped. Borrowing stupid multiples of income with no contingency plan. The last decade saw sense go out of the window, in favour of the "I want it now" forget about tomorrow speculators. It was always going to end in tears, that was apparent several years ago, but even when you thought this madness has to end it continued.

I agree to some extent. I'm not convinced that the majority in NL were really that profligate, but I often found myself wondering how so many people financed those BMW X5s and Mercedes M classes when the price was not far off a small house.

But isn't it the responsibility of the so-called experts, i.e. financial advisors and bankers, to protect people against financial irresponsibility? Isn't it also their responsibility to simply refuse loans to people who are in danger of going over the top, even if their payment record has been good?

Our house is financed by a mortgage that we took out based on Mrs Tester's income; she's head of nursing at a large care charity, so her income is OK but not huge. Obviously that means our house is OK but not huge, but it's very nice to sleep comfortably in the knowledge that should my contracting income fall away, we can still pay the mortgage, important bills and food with one income. We can live it up from my income, and live from hers.

[Doggy Styles]

How about the financially niave general public? People who thought a bedsit in Brixton for 250k was "a bargain". At a time when sensible people were doubting these overvaluations many idiots werer taking out 100% plus self cert mortagages, bacuase it was "different this time". Many leaving themselves little or no room to manouvre should things go pear shaped. Borrowing stupid multiples of income with no contingency plan. The last decade saw sense go out of the window, in favour of the "I want it now" forget about tomorrow speculators. It was always going to end in tears, that was apparent several years ago, but even when you thought this madness has to end it continued.

All true.

We must accept that most people were not smart enough to see the flaws in the 'endless credit/perpetual house price rises' culture.

That's why we used to have 'due dilligence' regulations, not only to protect people from themselves, but to protect everyone else (like many of us) who deposit with, or own shares in, lending institutions. At the end of the day, it is our money that is squandered.

It is never 'different this time'. The principles of good housekeeping will always apply, no matter what some 'clever' commentators say. (Like that idiot in The Times who now wants Gordon Brown to get a Nobel Prize.)

[EternalOptimist]

Has it ever occured that part of your role just might be to be the fall guy for upper management ?

Take the debacle over the tortures in Iraq - none of the senior politicians nor millitary who gave the orders were touched - rather it was the grunts who took the hit - same as it ever was.

There will be no prosecution of any senior figures - Banking or Torture scandals the same rules apply.

As the African proverb has it " When two elephants fight - its the grass that gets trampled."


...same as it ever was.

It's the same the whole world over
aint it all a bleeding shame
it's the rich what gets the gravy
it's the poor what gets the blame

[Gonzo]

How about the financially niave general public?

Don't be daft, noone is responsible for anything any more.

If something goes wrong in business, the managers will hold an inquiry into what went wrong, not accept that they should have been making sure things didn't go wrong in the first place.

Ditto politicians.

If children are indisciplined it is because they have ADHD, not because the parents can't be arsed to take responsibility.



How many people will now be thinking that they could sue for compo because "they have been mis-sold a mortgage" by the bank?

[Bagpuss]

How about the financially niave general public? People who thought a bedsit in Brixton for 250k was "a bargain". At a time when sensible people were doubting these overvaluations many idiots werer taking out 100% plus self cert mortagages, bacuase it was "different this time". Many leaving themselves little or no room to manouvre should things go pear shaped. Borrowing stupid multiples of income with no contingency plan. The last decade saw sense go out of the window, in favour of the "I want it now" forget about tomorrow speculators. It was always going to end in tears, that was apparent several years ago, but even when you thought this madness has to end it continued.

[Mich the Tester]

Has it ever occured that part of your role just might be to be the fall guy for upper management ?

That thought enters my mind quite a lot, yes, but I am encumbered with the heavy burden of a conscience, which prevents me from tailoring the content of my advice to the ambitions of senior managers and sometimes forces me to say things some people would rather not hear.

[AlfredJPruffock]

It’s shocking, but strangely not surprising. I see the same phenomenon in ICT, especially in banking. Project Managers and business managers whose bonuses and jobs depend on getting new functionality delivered on time and budget will often ignore the tester who tells them about the faults in a system or the risks involved in cutting the testing effort. Of course when tulipware goes into production the techies get blamed for any problems.

Now we discover that the people taking the decisions not only know nothing about ICT, but know nothing about banking either.

I really wonder whether there's a case to be made for prosecuting several senior bank managers/directors for criminal negligence.

Has it ever occured that part of your role just might be to be the fall guy for upper management ?

Take the debacle over the tortures in Iraq - none of the senior politicians nor millitary who gave the orders were touched - rather it was the grunts who took the hit - same as it ever was.

There will be no prosecution of any senior figures - Banking or Torture scandals the same rules apply.

As the African proverb has it " When two elephants fight - its the grass that gets trampled."


...same as it ever was.

[MPwannadecentincome]

It’s shocking, but strangely not surprising. I see the same phenomenon in ICT, especially in banking. Project Managers and business managers whose bonuses and jobs depend on getting new functionality delivered on time and budget will often ignore the tester who tells them about the faults in a system or the risks involved in cutting the testing effort. Of course when tulipware goes into production the techies get blamed for any problems.

Now we discover that the people taking the decisions not only know nothing about ICT, but know nothing about banking either.

I really wonder whether there's a case to be made for prosecuting several senior bank managers/directors for criminal negligence.

hear hear!

[Mich the Tester]

and this is backed up by more insiders prepared to spill the truth...

How the lust for money powers the City
A former trader lifts the lid on how greed eclipses prudence

God help our planet if these people continue to have influence anywhere!

It’s shocking, but strangely not surprising. I see the same phenomenon in ICT, especially in banking. Project Managers and business managers whose bonuses and jobs depend on getting new functionality delivered on time and budget will often ignore the tester who tells them about the faults in a system or the risks involved in cutting the testing effort. Of course when tulipware goes into production the techies get blamed for any problems.

Now we discover that the people taking the decisions not only know nothing about ICT, but know nothing about banking either.

I really wonder whether there's a case to be made for prosecuting several senior bank managers/directors for criminal negligence.

[MPwannadecentincome]

How about Tom McPillock, group chairman of RBS who was forced by MPs to admit that he didn't know what a credit derivative is?

How about James Crosby, who sacked the HBOS risk manager that told him things would go wrong and then went off to run the FSA? That's a real case of a loony running the asylum.

and this is backed up by more insiders prepared to spill the truth...

How the lust for money powers the City
A former trader lifts the lid on how greed eclipses prudence

God help our planet if these people continue to have influence anywhere!

[Cyberman]

Answer: Sir Terry Wogan. He is the only one with a banking qualification.

It's nice to see people emphasising the importance of professional qualifications, being also a banking graduate myself (AIB). It's just a shame that politicians do not also need qualifications to run the country.

[Mich the Tester]

How about Tom McPillock, group chairman of RBS who was forced by MPs to admit that he didn't know what a credit derivative is?

How about James Crosby, who sacked the HBOS risk manager that told him things would go wrong and then went off to run the FSA? That's a real case of a loony running the asylum.

Letter to the times this morning;

Question: who is the odd man out? Lord Stevenson, former chairman, HBOS; Andy Hornby, former chief executive, HBOS; Sir Fred Goodwin, former chief executive, Royal Bank of Scotland; John McFall, MP, chairman of Treasury Select Committee; Alistair Darling, Chancellor of the Exchequer; and Sir Terry Wogan, presenter of Radio 2 breakfast show.

Answer: Sir Terry Wogan. He is the only one with a banking qualification.