Reply to: How on earth do we get out of this economic meltdown mess?

[Cyberman]

Your scenario still states a depression was required for Hitler to gain power.

My question was, what evidence do you have for your earlier statement that Hitler would still have gained power if a depression had NOT occurred?

I believe the odds were heavily against it. People like that gain power when all around them are weak, desperate, or usually both.

A bust does not necessarily mean a depression. A recession would have been sufficient catalyst IMO, and recessions occur every 7-10 years.

[EternalOptimist]

Your scenario still states a depression was required for Hitler to gain power.

My question was, what evidence do you have for your earlier statement that Hitler would still have gained power if a depression had NOT occurred?

I believe the odds were heavily against it. People like that gain power when all around them are weak, desperate, or usually both.

This is called the 'CounterFactual Conditional Concept' of history. otherwise known as a 'What-if'.

I KNEW that history degree would come in useful some day

[Doggy Styles]

Hitler was evil and a tyrant and excellent leadership material, and was hell bent on achieving his aims, and the Germans were biding their time for an opportune moment for revenge on their enemies since the first world war.

The depression provided that opportunity, but if the depression had not happened when it did, it would probably have happened a few years later anyway. Busts always happen eventually regardless of what the naive Labour lot believe, and that would have been the catalyst that Hitler required.

Your scenario still states a depression was required for Hitler to gain power.

My question was, what evidence do you have for your earlier statement that Hitler would still have gained power if a depression had NOT occurred?

I believe the odds were heavily against it. People like that gain power when all around them are weak, desperate, or usually both.

[EternalOptimist]

Was it Blackadder who said the strategy was to march slowly into no-mans land? Considering the senseless waste of human life it sounds about right.

Well, that's the myth. The facts tell a different story though. I guess a lot comes down to the stupidity of a few people in key positions.

[BrilloPad]

It's funny, there have been libraries full of books written on the causes of the first world war, and the strategy and tactics of the second.
Virtually none on the causes of the second world war and the strategy and tactics of the first

Was it Blackadder who said the strategy was to march slowly into no-mans land? Considering the senseless waste of human life it sounds about right.

[EternalOptimist]

It's funny, there have been libraries full of books written on the causes of the first world war, and the strategy and tactics of the second.
Virtually none on the causes of the second world war and the strategy and tactics of the first

[Cyberman]

On what evidence do you base that?

Hitler was evil and a tyrant and excellent leadership material, and was hell bent on achieving his aims, and the Germans were biding their time for an opportune moment for revenge on their enemies since the first world war.

The depression provided that opportunity, but if the depression had not happened when it did, it would probably have happened a few years later anyway. Busts always happen eventually regardless of what the naive Labour lot believe, and that would have been the catalyst that Hitler required.

[Doggy Styles]

There is no doubt that the depression helped Hitler, but there is also no doubt that he would have found other means of achieving power if that event had not occurred. WW2 would still have happened IMO.

On what evidence do you base that?

[ratewhore]

True but what do we do instead? Engineering and manufacturing? That will take a generation or more to turn around again.

You're quite right. But what we have now is a culture of making and buying crap we don't need. When the house of cards starts to fall, people stop buying said crap and people realise the emperor has no clothes on.

If civilisation constantly chases the pound and constantly wants bigger profits than last year then ultimately we are going nowhere...

[Cyberman]

I honestly can't believe what I am reading.

WW2 came about as a direct result of the Great Depression. Are you seriously trying to claim that WW2 would have occurred had there not been a depression?

The Great Depression and the effect it had on Germany in the early 1930's enabled Hitler to come to power, and to use the excuse of the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles, and the Jews, as an excuse and a cover for expansionist and fascist ideals. No depression = no Hitler = no WW2.

Appeasement by the major powers allowed Hitler to rearm and expand german territory until war was inevitable.

WW2 was caused by the depression, gross failings by politicians, and the scheming and conniving of some of the most evil men in history. The provisions of the treaty of Versailles were merely an excuse.

There is no doubt that the depression helped Hitler, but there is also no doubt that he would have found other means of achieving power if that event had not occurred. WW2 would still have happened IMO.

[Doggy Styles]

Back in caveman days, if you tried to borrow four or five year's worth of food you'd get a wooden club over your head.

I like considering what cavemen would have done, being as they must have got something right over all those years to survive and evolve.

[sasguru]

I think governments and the banking industry are trying to get us back to where we were, which is a society based on debt.

Ultimately we are a society employing people to produce crap we don't need in order to increase the profits of shareholders. I personally believe a readjustment in mindset is required. You can't run the world turning one pound of real money into ten pounds of debt and not extect it to come tumbling around your ears at some point.

If we try and get back to that we will be back here again in 20 years time...

True but what do we do instead? Engineering and manufacturing? That will take a generation or more to turn around again.
Sadly we don't have the leadership whereby someone with vision comes along and grabs the issue by the scruff of the neck.

[ratewhore]

We keep hearing this, together with that Beckett woman's advice to buy houses (as the turning point will occur quicker than most realise). I personally will be staggered if we come so quickly out of such a deep recession. What do others think?

I think governments and the banking industry are trying to get us back to where we were, which is a society based on debt.

Ultimately we are a society employing people to produce crap we don't need in order to increase the profits of shareholders. I personally believe a readjustment in mindset is required. You can't run the world turning one pound of real money into ten pounds of debt and not extect it to come tumbling around your ears at some point.

If we try and get back to that we will be back here again in 20 years time...

[Doggy Styles]

I distinctly remember this from history lessons at school. Faced with punitive reparations, Germany started printing money like there was no tomorrow, leading to hyperinflation.

Indeed, it is standard text at GCSE.

After WW2 we tried the reverse policy and helped the Germans (and Japs) rebuild, and they've been good as gold ever since.

[Sysman]

W H (your granddad) S

Yes, the depression was one cause. But most Brits who attended the Versailles conference thought the French were too vindictive. Field Marshall Haig was on record as saying afterwards that we'd have to start all over again in 20 years.

I distinctly remember this from history lessons at school. Faced with punitive reparations, Germany started printing money like there was no tomorrow, leading to hyperinflation.