Reply to: Ban on Dutch MP from entering UK

[darmstadt]

The rather nice reaction to this...see it wasn't in the press

[FSM with Cheddar]

It's perfectly fine to comment on someone's appearance. And it is perfectly fine to address someone by their colour as a means of identifying them.

It is not my interpretation that the term Golliwog is racist. It started off as a perfectly innocent icon. However it has been used predominantly as a racist slur for sometime now and is generally considered as unacceptable. If it was a term that was used in general banter, there would be no issue.

[SantaClaus]

Indeed - I commented on how a friend looked as white a sheet this morning. Obviously that is racist and I am now deeply ashamed of myself.

Black coffee anyone?

That would probably get me the sack in the public sector

[Board Game Geek]

Thankfully I have never heard of this chap, and therefore I could watch the video without being biased concerning his background.

The video is absolutely shocking.

One half of me thinks "You get extremists in every religion. The vast majority are peaceful".

The other half of me thinks "Yes, but the extremists are doing their level best to radicalise and incite the peaceful members, and are succeeding in some cases. Enough to cause thousands of deaths across the Globe."

Of course, I then realise that religion is merely the vehicle or catalyst for the extremists to exploit in order to achieve their objectives.

The scary thing being that religion is a very powerful motivator, and perfect for motivating others, as it has done for thousands of years.

Yet, rightly or wrongly, religion also gives succour and comfort to others.

Is it time to remove the control mechanism and replace it with something else ? Something more rational and directly supportive, which can help people break the cycle of addiction to religion, and stand on their own feet ?

To accept that they are their own masters and not allow their fears and weakenesses to be manipulated by others with their own motives ?

[Mich the Tester]

I'd disagree. Most Dutch people I know are of the opinion that he's going to get plenty more seats in the next election. They're too frightened to say it too publically though due to the trouble following the opinion poll after that film maker was murdered.

He will, probably about 20, but there's a hard core of about 10 to 15% of the population who'll just vote for the most right winged candidate around. Most Dutch people and certainly many of the educated ones don't like him and have seen that his party has actually been of no use whatsoever in Parliament.

You might be right though that many people are afraid to say they'll vote for him, but I don't expect he'll get into a coalition with anyone. It could go two ways; the economy stays awful and people run off to the extremes of left and right. Or the economy just bumps along and people stick to the 'safety' of the old (oude vertrouwde) Christian Democrats and Labour.

Interestingly, the one party that has consistently expressed opposition to Wilders is D66; they were almost dead in the water at the last election, but are now doing quite well because of their consistent stand against him.

The murder of Theo van Gogh was shocking; the guy was a complete ****** who insulted almost everyone but no way did he deserve that; still, it only takes one idiot with a gun at the wrong moment to send a whole society haywire.

[PM-Junkie]

She made her comment on how she thought someone looked it is you who are introducing the "racist" interpretation.

Indeed - I commented on how a friend looked as white a sheet this morning. Obviously that is racist and I am now deeply ashamed of myself.

[DodgyAgent]

Carol should have the right to say what she wants in a private conversation on private property. However she did the "likening" at the BBC. Therefore the BBC should have a right to not require her services any more if they don't share her opinion.

I still don't see why she felt the need to liken someone to Racist symbol. She made her comment, based purely on colour of that person. This is not acceptable.

I see your point on the praying. I would take it as a complement if someone offered a prayer to help me get better. However I still don't believe it is appropriate in the NHS. Besides, a sacrifice to Zeus would be far more effective.

She made her comment on how she thought someone looked it is you who are introducing the "racist" interpretation.

[Purple Dalek]

Possibly. There are big problems there, but on the other hand there are plenty of towns in NL with immigrant populations and without big problems; the news shows those places where things go wrong, but the truth remains that MOST people get along fine MOST of the time.

I'd disagree. Most Dutch people I know are of the opinion that he's going to get plenty more seats in the next election. They're too frightened to say it too publically though due to the trouble following the opinion poll after that film maker was murdered.

[Mich the Tester]

If you could graph the increase in trouble in his home town and how extreme his view has become they'd be neck and neck.

Possibly. There are big problems there, but on the other hand there are plenty of towns in NL with immigrant populations and without big problems; the news shows those places where things go wrong, but the truth remains that MOST people get along fine MOST of the time.

[Purple Dalek]

True, but I also know that Venlo is avoided by some investors because of it's reputation for racism and violence; Dutch employers tend not to want to be in places where workers hassle each other over ethnic issues, so I don't think it's fair to just blame on part of the town for what's happened. It's also suffered because of the closing of the mines in Limburg and the fact that the Dutch economy is centred around Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Utrecht.

As I say, it's up to everybody to decide for themselves whether they support him going to Britain; I just say that you shouldn't underestimate how extreme his views are and how much more extreme they've become in recent years.

If you could graph the increase in trouble in his home town and how extreme his view has become they'd be neck and neck.

[Mich the Tester]

To see where he comes from I'd suggest a good look at what has happened to his home town.

True, but I also know that Venlo is avoided by some investors because of it's reputation for racism and violence; Dutch employers tend not to want to be in places where workers hassle each other over ethnic issues, so I don't think it's fair to just blame on part of the town for what's happened. It's also suffered because of the closing of the mines in Limburg and the fact that the Dutch economy is centred around Rotterdam, Amsterdam and Utrecht.

As I say, it's up to everybody to decide for themselves whether they support him going to Britain; I just say that you shouldn't underestimate how extreme his views are and how much more extreme they've become in recent years.

[Purple Dalek]

Indeed. I’ve seen this guy becoming more and more extreme the last few years. He used to be a sort of libertarian in a centrist party who campaigned reforms to social security, but he’s become an extremist anti-Islam single issue campaigner, who continually stokes up hatred of muslims; he claims to stand up for free speech, but only really if it’s free speech for himself. He introduced a bill in the Dutch parliament to ban the Koran from the Netherlands and has even called for the removal of muslims from Europe. His party campaigns for Dutch Antilleans to be refused entry to the Netherlands, even though they are citizens of the same country. Many of the supporters who demonstrate for him are known members of neo-nazi organisations, and indeed one of his campaign officers at the last election posted messages on neo-nazi websites calling for their support. Once the press got hold of this, the campaigner was sacked, but one suspects that was done to save face.

It’s up to you guys whether you think he should be allowed into Britain, but personally I’d say you should think twice, even thrice and do not underestimate the true nature of a very smooth operator.

To see where he comes from I'd suggest a good look at what has happened to his home town.

[FSM with Cheddar]

Carol Thatcher did not call somebody a Golliwog. She likened somebody to a golliwog in a private conversation. That is totally different IMO.

Praying is hardly a medical solution. It is a gesture of goodwill and an aid to positive thought and surely the opportunity will be welcomed by most reasonable people.

Carol should have the right to say what she wants in a private conversation on private property. However she did the "likening" at the BBC. Therefore the BBC should have a right to not require her services any more if they don't share her opinion.

I still don't see why she felt the need to liken someone to Racist symbol. She made her comment, based purely on colour of that person. This is not acceptable.

I see your point on the praying. I would take it as a complement if someone offered a prayer to help me get better. However I still don't believe it is appropriate in the NHS. Besides, a sacrifice to Zeus would be far more effective.

[ratewhore]

Praying is hardly a medical solution. It is a gesture of goodwill and an aid to positive thought and surely the opportunity will be welcomed by most reasonable people.

WHS

[Cyberman]

There is a difference between offending someone based on different point of view, and racism. Calling someone a Golliwog is racist. But it is more than that. Carol's natural reaction to refer to someone who is black as a Golliwog shows an underlying level racism that is ingrained in her. If it was an accident she would have apologised. She has not.

On the praying for a patient subject:
It is totally inappropriate for someone that is in a position of power to offer a patient a medical solution that has not been tested though scientific means. Including: Witchcraft, Prayer, Homoeopathy, Reflexology, Osteopathy or Morris dancing.

She didn't need to be suspended. But just asked not to do it again.

Carol Thatcher did not call somebody a Golliwog. She likened somebody to a golliwog in a private conversation. That is totally different IMO.

Praying is hardly a medical solution. It is a gesture of goodwill and an aid to positive thought and surely the opportunity will be welcomed by most reasonable people.