Reply to: RIP Terry Spencer DFC

[interested]

Interesting to note that the Luftwaffe viewed the Battle of Britain as a kind of romantic Knights engaged in Chivalrous Combat - and that the RAF would conduct themselves as Gentlemen in battle.

The RAF though had no such illusions they realised it was a Battle for survival and so were under instructions to shoot and kill any Luftwaffe pilots who had parachuted - no mercy and no quarter for the Nazis.

Not true at all - my Grandad flew Spits in 92 Squadron and recounted plenty of examples of Luftwaffe pilots machine gunning baled out/splashed down RAF pilots. It's mentioned in the 'War Diaries of Neville Duke' if I recall correctly.

[EternalOptimist]

Fact or opinion, bearing in mind it is against the articles of war?

Well, I have an anecdote from and uncle who was in the infantry. He was in the follow up after DDay and saw a fair bit of front line combat. When they got withdrawn from the front line,for R&R quite often they were given lighter duties before being sent back to the combat zone.
One of his jobs was to conduct a two week patrol of the rhine, up and down, searching for stragglers and infiltrators, they caught a fair few. I asked him how they coped with the prisoners, if they were living out of backpacks and no transport. 'Ah, we didnt take any of those' he said.

[ratewhore]

The RAF though had no such illusions they realised it was a Battle for survival and so were under instructions to shoot and kill any Luftwaffe pilots who had parachuted - no mercy and no quarter for the Nazis.

Fact or opinion, bearing in mind it is against the articles of war?

[dang65]

as much as I detest what the Nazi's did, a large proportion of their military probably had little to do with concentration camps and the various war crimes, they were too busy fighting on the front line for their country.

Führer

[EternalOptimist]

a large proportion of their military probably had little to do with concentration camps and the various war crimes, they were too busy fighting on the front line for their country.

Kate Winslett has more to do with the concentration camps than their military ever did

[AlfredJPruffock]

He told me of an incident earlier in the war, in the Mediteranean. The Brits decided to launch an carrier strike at the Italian naval base in Taranto. No navy had ever used aircraft carriers in this way before, in fact it was the inspiration for the Japanese carrier attack at Pearl Harbour. (The Japanese had a naval attache on board).
As the bi-planes came in to launch their torpedoes, they realised there was a 20 foot high net streched across on mine-tipped-poles that prevented them attacking. As they aborted the attack, a Canadian pilot had one last attempt, he flew straight into the net , exploded the mines and cleared the way for the rest. No one ever knew if he did it deliberately.

Small world.

My Mother had two cousins from ClydeBank whom were both captured by the Germans on on the same day at Taranto.

[Ardesco]

I disagree about there not being many heros left. There are loads of heroic actions everyday out in Afganistan and Iraq. Just look at the guy who dived on the grenade last year.

I imagine there are also loads of potential heros out there who just need a large scale conflict to show their metal. Hope they don't get their chance though.

I'm not trying to belittle the hero's that are around today, note I did not say they are no heros today, I said there are very few hero's like Terry Spencer and Douglas Bader. Is this because we are not currently fighting for the survival of our country? Maybe so, I stand my what I said though.

The Germans didn't take away his legs, though they threatened to. In fact when one was damaged, the Luftwaffe gave the RAF safe passage to parachute in a replacement.

I know they allowed new ones in, but I am pretty sure I read that they also took away his legs after his repeated escape attempts (many of which were successful). These were of course after they had graciously given him the new set of prosthetics.

Considering that the RAF then abused the safe passage to go on a bombing raid, and Bader naturally continued escape attempts with his new leg, you'd have to say that the Luftwaffe came out of that with at least as much honour as we did.

I have never said that the Luftwaffe did not have honour, as much as I detest what the Nazi's did, a large proportion of their military probably had little to do with concentration camps and the various war crimes, they were too busy fighting on the front line for their country.

[gingerjedi]

...Canadian pilot had one last attempt, he flew straight into the net , exploded the mines and cleared the way for the rest. No one ever knew if he did it deliberately.

If the pilot had been American the answer would be more obvious.

[EternalOptimist]

I read an article a while ago which proposed the theory that the Luftwaffe never stood a chance of winning the Battle of Britain, right from the start. I don't think it was written by an historian, but still, I remember it was quite an interesting read.

Edit: Yeah, here it is on H2G2

Goes on a bit, but includes stuff like:


etc.

There was also a strategic reason why they stood no chance. The British only ever committed a portion of their squadrons to the battle, the rest were in reserve up North. Once the Germans had bombed the cities, the radar stations and the factories, what were they going to do next ? The Brits could easily withdraw all of the fighters North if the battle went badly. The only real danger was an invasion. At that point all of the squadrons would have been unleased plus the Royal navy. THAT would have been a battle for survival

[EternalOptimist]

Thats an incredible story - that Pilot was certainly brave.

Unfortunately I cannnot remember all the details - but I recall an incident whereby a British ship rammed a German destroyer , I think its was in Norwegian waters and sunk itself in the process - the German Navy awarded a medal of bravery to the British Captain !

I shall try and confirm the details from my friend who is quite a whizz with Millitary History.

He told me of an incident earlier in the war, in the Mediteranean. The Brits decided to launch an carrier strike at the Italian naval base in Taranto. No navy had ever used aircraft carriers in this way before, in fact it was the inspiration for the Japanese carrier attack at Pearl Harbour. (The Japanese had a naval attache on board).
As the bi-planes came in to launch their torpedoes, they realised there was a 20 foot high net streched across on mine-tipped-poles that prevented them attacking. As they aborted the attack, a Canadian pilot had one last attempt, he flew straight into the net , exploded the mines and cleared the way for the rest. No one ever knew if he did it deliberately.

[Mich the Tester]

Little bit insenstive ?

Agree with sentiments, although lionising past heroes whilst dimissing present personalities is nothing new, read Polybius and how the legions of his day (2nd cen BCE) were no match for the legions that eventually defeated Hannibal.

People generally rise to the challenge, look at the present lot in Afghanistan, some in combat every day for 6 months. Remember the bus bomb on 7/7 and the people running towards the bus moments after the explosion.

I’m not saying we have no heroes any more. There are plenty. I just think that sometimes people get priorities wrong; stupid amounts of money are spent on people who don’t really give us very much to look up to when really we should see chaps like Terry Spencer as an example of how to live life to the full.

[dang65]

Interesing to note that the Luftwaffe viewed the Battle of Britain as a kind of romantic Knights engaged in Chivalrous Combat - and that the RAF would be Gentlemen in battle.

The RAF though had no such illusions they realised it was a Battle for survival and so were under instructions to shoot and kill any Luftwaffe pilots who had parachuted - no mercy and no quarter for the Nazis.

I read an article a while ago which proposed the theory that the Luftwaffe never stood a chance of winning the Battle of Britain, right from the start. I don't think it was written by an historian, but still, I remember it was quite an interesting read.

Edit: Yeah, here it is on H2G2

Goes on a bit, but includes stuff like:

The Advantage of Defence

Britain, being the defender during the Battle of Britain, had many advantages over Germany. The first, and perhaps the most important, was the range of the Messerschmitt 109 fighter. Even when flying from airfields in Northern France, the ME 109 was only able to fly as north as London before having to return to base to re-fuel, and when engaged in heavy combat, and fuel was being used up faster, London was impossible to reach. Although attempts were made to extend fighter range, including the use of disposable drop fuel tanks and even towing fighter aircraft across the channel, none succeeded, and the Luftwaffe was only able to contest air superiority across an arc covering Kent, Sussex and Surrey.

The British fighters, on the other hand, were able to stay in combat longer as their bases were nearer, and were able to land, refuel, and return to the combat arena far faster.

Germany had also been forced to quickly establish a new network of air bases across northern France. Some French airfields were used, but they needed new supplies of food, oil and spare parts to be able to function effectively. The repair organisation, vital for maintaining a large air fleet capable of launching attacks on Britain, was almost impossible to organise locally; many damaged aircraft were transported by road back to Germany in order to be repaired. The Luftwaffe, which started the Battle of Britain with 1011 fighters in August 1940, compared with Britain's 1032, had, by September, only 533 serviceable single-engine fighters, and by 1 October, only 275. Britain, on the other hand, had established airfields prepared for the conflict, and Fighter Command was able to maintain its strength at around 700 aircraft.

Another advantage was what happened to shot-down pilots during combat. As the Battle of Britain was fought over Britain, if an aircraft was shot down, and the pilot escaped unhurt, he parachuted onto British soil. If the pilot was British, he would either immediately or perhaps after a short stay in hospital, return to his airfield and the war, and be able to fly again soon afterwards. It was for this reason that German fighters were ordered to machine-gun British pilots as they parachuted out of their aircraft, or landed on the ground. German pilots, on the other hand, were captured, shipped across the Atlantic and sent to POW camps in Canada. For them, the war was over.

etc.

[AlfredJPruffock]

The Germans didn't take away his legs, though they threatened to. In fact when one was damaged, the Luftwaffe gave the RAF safe passage to parachute in a replacement.

Considering that the RAF then abused the safe passage to go on a bombing raid, and Bader naturally continued escape attempts with his new leg, you'd have to say that the Luftwaffe came out of that with at least as much honour as we did.

Interesting to note that the Luftwaffe viewed the Battle of Britain as a kind of romantic Knights engaged in Chivalrous Combat - and that the RAF would conduct themselves as Gentlemen in battle.

The RAF though had no such illusions they realised it was a Battle for survival and so were under instructions to shoot and kill any Luftwaffe pilots who had parachuted - no mercy and no quarter for the Nazis.

[AlfredJPruffock]

my dad was on the aircraft carrier HMS Victorious in the Pacific in late 1944. They were attacked by Kamikaze suicide bombers and one of them hit the armoured deck and failed to explode. It skidded along on fire and they brought the armoured bulldozer out, to push it over the side before it exploded. My dad watched from a side deck as the plane landed in the water next to the ship. A fair few officers and sailors were watching the pilot as the water came into the cockpit. The japanese was calm and then saluted them, just as his plane went under.
Dad said it was one of the bravest things he saw in the war and, although it took him thirty years to accept it, there were heroes on both sides.

Thats an incredible story - that Pilot was certainly brave.

Unfortunately I cannnot remember all the details - but I recall an incident whereby a British ship rammed a German destroyer , I think its was in Norwegian waters and sunk itself in the process - the German Navy awarded a medal of bravery to the British Captain !

I shall try and confirm the details from my friend who is quite a whizz with Millitary History.

[expat]

Noy many hero's like this left. Another one was Douglas Bader who despite having both his legs amputated before the second world war still became one of our most successful fighter aces and when shot down over Germany escaped from prison so many times they eventually took his prosthetic legs away and sent him to Colditz!!

I shall be dedicating a tipple to Flight Lieutenant Spencer tonight.

The Germans didn't take away his legs, though they threatened to. In fact when one was damaged, the Luftwaffe gave the RAF safe passage to parachute in a replacement.

Considering that the RAF then abused the safe passage to go on a bombing raid, and Bader naturally continued escape attempts with his new leg, you'd have to say that the Luftwaffe came out of that with at least as much honour as we did.