Reply to: If you think the UK economy is bad, look at this

[sasguru]

Proved right as usual. Note the date this thread was started.

[AtW]

But I didn't expect someone on here to seriously believe that auditing accounts, following the rule of law, transparency and trust are a hindrance to good government.

I don't believe auditors - Enron was audited and so was Madoff ponzi scheme, all top banks that got into subprime junk were audited by top firms, what's the value of those audits?

[Doggy Styles]

What did you expect. The boy is a cretin.
His only real ambition in life is to be highest poster on this forum.

I expect some people to wildly overemphasise a selective snapshot of currency performance.

But I didn't expect someone on here to seriously believe that auditing accounts, following the rule of law, transparency and trust are a hindrance to good government.

Bizarre.

[sasguru]

That's all waffle. You really are deliberately ignorant on the EU, aren't you. I'm wasting my time arguing with that.

What did you expect. The boy is a cretin.
His only real ambition in life is to be highest poster on this forum.

[AtW]

That's all waffle.

I think your audit claim is (just smoke and mirrors).

What's not waffle is that euro now a successful reserve currency used to hedge against dollar. That's the achievement of eurozone members (growing in numbers). I don't give a tulip if they did not get audited, they have great success and should be helped rather than hindered like UK does.

[Doggy Styles]

That's all waffle. You really are deliberately ignorant on the EU, aren't you. I'm wasting my time arguing with that.

[AtW]

No, it doesn't. The UK accounts are audited AND SIGNED OFF by the National Audit Office.

Yes, NAO - something that is totally independent of UK Govt.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6078982.stm

I think this situation is grossly misrepresented and probably some politics at play there.

AtW, you are talking like a third world dictator - "it's only a few billion"

No, I talk like a person who understands what the big picture is and who can focus on things that are top priority - you can fight all your life for EU audit to save few billions (that in all probability not stolen) or you can fight waste of far more money by UK Govt that you can actually affect in some ways.

Suppose your bank manager dips in and out of people's accounts, taking money.

EU commission is not bank manager! Closer example would be some PR agency that gets paid money and they do the work and then report how they spent money and there is always some chance some spending was not good (restaurant bills). In this case you can cancel the whole spend on the basis of some unknown but probably low fraud, OR you can look at totality of picture and decide if overall spend (even if its 100% fraud) still brings in good results to justify it.

EU is justified - the only big thorn is UK's position that is basically it wants benefits of the team play but not responsibilities. IMO UK should pull out of EU completely OR play like team player.

IMO - if you are not in eurozone you should not be getting benefits of free trade and other perks (visa free travel maybe). Then UK citizens can decide if this all is worth being in EU.

[Doggy Styles]

And no fraud takes place in UK budget?

No, it doesn't. The UK accounts are audited AND SIGNED OFF by the National Audit Office.

£17 bln split many ways is what, maybe £2-3 bln max for UK? I am far more concerned about what UK Govt is doing here with far bigger sums.

AtW, you are talking like a third world dictator - "it's only a few billion"

These people don't just run the European Union budget, they run the European Union. They want more powers over our laws and policies. If we join their currency they'll run much of our economy too.

I wouldn't go anywhere near them.

Suppose your bank manager dips in and out of people's accounts, taking money. And when you find out and complain to the police, the police hassle you until you withdraw the complaint. And if you persist in complaining, they fit you up on a paedo charge. Would you keep your account there?

I happen to believe in good governance, and the EU fail the most basic features of that, which are proper accounting and obeying the rule of law.

[AtW]

no accounts were available for some £17 billion in structural aid projects.

And no fraud takes place in UK budget? £17 bln split many ways is what, maybe £2-3 bln max for UK? I am far more concerned about what UK Govt is doing here with far bigger sums.

If EU is breaking the law then UK should make efforts to sue them, use MI6 to expose all that scandal - nothing of this sort is happening, your audit issue is important but in a big picture it's no reason to adandon successful EU integration - success of euro currency that is now proper reserve one just proves how wrong UK was to oppose it. If some French politicians got bribes in order for this to happen is not sometihng that would bother me in the least given the achievements of the project - the amount of waste in UK is by far bigger than in EU and by far more directly related to me (as UK taxpayer).

Maybe UK should pull out of EU completely, at least this would be consistent action.

[Doggy Styles]

AtW, I don't think you realise what a crock of shyte the EU is. I can copy and paste too. The following is revealing, and remember, this is only about fraud. EU waste is even bigger.

"Opportunities for fraud are open and they are taken advantage of. The most elementary precautions are neither taken nor even contemplated. The reverse is the case. People such as myself, who attempt to bring openness and accountability to the system, are pursued, suspended and dismissed." - (Marta Andreasen. Whistle-blower and ex Chief Accountant to the European Commission)

Eventually (and inevitably) Mrs Andreasen was sacked, on the grounds of 'disloyalty'. She has since dedicatedly toured Europe, explaining to the public exactly how chaotic accounting is within the EU, and the EU's inability to apply even basic accounting rules to itself.

Another story - The entire European Commission, led by Jaques Santer, had to resign after an EU Committee of Independent Experts reported evidence of administrative failure, financial irregularities and nepotism. It found that millions of pounds worth of funds from the humanitarian aid office had disappeared, while no accounts were available for some £17 billion in structural aid projects. The report gave details of fraudulently altered tender specifications, inflated fees, illegal payments, open fraud, evasion of tax and social security obligations, paid personnel who could not be accounted for, and a pervasive sub-culture of petty graft, favouritism and criminality.

The Dutch official who reported the fraud to the Commission was promptly suspended from his post and subjected to disciplinary action. This action led to his dismissal.

All Commissions since Jaques Santer's team have promised to fight corrupton, and all have failed. The present anti-corruption commissioner, Siim Kallas, was himself embroiled in a major financial scandal in the 1990's.

[AtW]

Breakdown of EU budget expenditure (from wikipedia):

"In the 2006 budget, the largest single expenditure item was agriculture (direct aid, export refunds, storage, rural development and other) with around 46.7% of the total budget. Next came structural actions (Objective 1, Objective 2, Objective 3, other structural measures, community initiatives, innovatory measures and technical assistance, other specific structural operations and the cohesion fund) with approximately 30.4% of the total. Internal policies (training, youth, culture, audiovisual, media, information, energy, Euratom nuclear safeguards and environment, consumer protection, internal market, industry and Trans-European networks, research and technological development, other internal policies) took up around 8.5%. Administration accounted for around 6.3%. External actions, the pre-accession strategy, compensations and reserves brought up the rear with approximately 4.9%, 2.1%, 1% and 0.1% respectively."

So, essentially two big items take up 77% of the budget - these are historical items I think, I don't see disaster if they are not audited yet - it was clear that money is essentially wasted from UKs point of view anyway, given issues with food pricing I actually think having agrocultural policy that supports EU farmers is a good thing, even if those farmers are mainly French - UK does not want to support its own farmers so should stop whining about others wishing to do so.

[AtW]

Budgets themselves aren't audited, accounts for the budget are. The resultant expenditure from the budget is audited by the National Audit Office.

Sounds good, thanks for sharing this.

Of course it is debated properly, and the opposition has every power to change it if they can convince enough government MPs to vote with them.

In practice they can't do much - that's not debate since the ruling party always whips its own vote (very few exceptions). In effect there is no discussions (or negotiations to be more exact), however in EU's budget many different parties come together and need to achieve consensus.

That, I'm afraid, is democracy. You're changing the subject again, because parliamentary debate has nothing to do with auditing accounts.

That was my point actually - I said it had nothing to do with auditing, so it was not me who tried to change subject.

The EU is a gravy train for failed, deceitful and incompetent politicians, the EU Common Agricultural Policy is one of the best examples of rip-off in the west, and how Spain ended up with fishing quotas in the Irish Sea is beyond reason.

There were two world wars mainly fought in Europe - EU helps avoid such mistakes in a big way, it sure involves some gravy train to buy off some nations to join the common cause - I see no big problem with it as long as it achieves big picture objectives - peace in Europe and creation of united positions in Europe that would help counter balance USA on one hand and China/Russia on another.

[BrilloPad]

I've done it before but that stuff is safely buried deep in the forum. Impossible to find since forum search does not like short words and my post count is so high that it's hard to check all my posts



I'll trade +1 ATW point for +5 Xeno points, discounts available on large transactions...

I think you can search for shory words using google and specifying a particular site to search for. does SKA have this ability?

[Doggy Styles]

First of all EU budget is very small

No it isn't, it is 85,000,000,000 euros, and we donate to it.

secondly can you point out me to the direction of UK budget being audited?

Budgets themselves aren't audited, accounts for the budget are. The resultant expenditure from the budget is audited by the National Audit Office.

It is not even debated properbly in parliament since the opposition has no power to change it!

Of course it is debated properly, and the opposition has every power to change it if they can convince enough government MPs to vote with them. That, I'm afraid, is democracy. You're changing the subject again, because parliamentary debate has nothing to do with auditing accounts.

UK budget is a lot bigger than UK and personally myself (as UK taxpayer) I am far more interested in UK budget audit than any other budget - EU, Russian, Honduras or whatever.

But you are proposing that the UK integrate its currency with countries who run and misappropriate such budgets! If I were you I'd be very concerned!

It's not the Brussels that rips people off in this country - it is Gordon Brown, being in euro zone would help prevent a number of dirty tricks politicians use to hide their mismanagement.

That is laughable AtW - ALL the evidence points to the opposite. The EU is a gravy train for failed, deceitful and incompetent politicians, the EU Common Agricultural Policy is one of the best examples of rip-off in the west, and how Spain ended up with fishing quotas in the Irish Sea is beyond reason.

[AtW]

Is that a little piece of CUK history in the making right there?

I've done it before but that stuff is safely buried deep in the forum. Impossible to find since forum search does not like short words and my post count is so high that it's hard to check all my posts

What are they worth compared to Xeno Geek Points?

I'll trade +1 ATW point for +5 Xeno points, discounts available on large transactions...