Reply to: Cuba, have we really done any better than them?

[M_B]

You got to be joking - Cuban missile crisis could have turned this world into burned out planet, and you accuse Kennedy of terrorist towards some small state that was playing off two superpowers in a very dangerous game?

And so what? USSR funded plenty of wars in Latin America, including supporting Cuba - same happened in Asia. UK did plenty of dirty things when Empire was strong too, the only reason it could not effectively oppose USSR after WW2 was because it was so weak so someone else had to do it - humans should be grateful that USA did what was necessary to win (without nuclear war), if they were Nazi Germany they'd just partition the world and UK and whole Europe in this case would have been under Soviet rule.

If the price for avoiding that was countering Soviet influence via terrorism in Cuba, Nicaragua then so be it - I'd rather take that than Soviet control: unlike you I know what it is, where as you got no clue which is why you should dedicate your time to learning horrors of Soviet regime before saying one bad word against USAs actions to counter it.

Sorry for digging this up - I have just got back to work and have gone through all my emails.

So first Kennedy. He sanctioned Operation Mongoose and the Bay of Pigs. So yes I am correct in accusing him of terrorism. Next he was the one who moved missiles into Turkey so it was Kennedy that started the 'dangerous game'. Feel free to provide other historical reasons for the Cuban Missile Crisis if you disagree or is your argument that Cuba knocked on Russias door one day and just asked for a few nuclear missiles and Russia thought why not ?

Secondly you ask so what ? Well I personally dont agree with you that supplying arms to Turkey, Indonesia and Iraq to commit genocide is a good thing. I also don't think that destabilising countries to install a dictator is very wise (the CIA funded Noriegas rise to power and then got rid of him, Iran is another example .... and Saddam Hussein... and the Taleban).

Next you bring in other countries who have done the same. Here I agree with you - they were never part of my argument, but now you mention them then yes, I could be critical of them aswell, but this thread is about Cuba and the US is the most relevant.

Finally you bring in the USSR again. I am aware of the atrocities of the USSR regime and have studied it as you suggest. However my argument is not about the USSR, it is about the US and 'the Wests' foreign policy with respect to Cuba. If you wish I could be critical of the USSR aswell - a different thread perhaps ?

The great thing about 'the West', is that you are allowed to be critical of its foreign policy. Give it a go, your taxes pay for it and it is done in your name after all..... there must be something you don't agree with surely or are we whiter than white ? Do you believe we invaded Iraq over WMD's for example, are you happy we funded Saddam for years and sold him weapons including chemical weapons to use against the Kurds, don't you think its strange we didn't remove him during the first Gulf War (another thread maybe).

..... although I see you wont be back for a while ... oh well...

[AtW]

The facts remain - Kennedy instigated a terrorist campaign against Cuba and started the Cuban missile crisis. That terrorist campaign continues in one form or another whether you chose to accept that or not.

You got to be joking - Cuban missile crisis could have turned this world into burned out planet, and you accuse Kennedy of terrorist towards some small state that was playing off two superpowers in a very dangerous game?

In addition to Cuba, the US also funded a terrorist campagin against Nicaragua and overthrew the regimes in Haiti and Panama.

And so what? USSR funded plenty of wars in Latin America, including supporting Cuba - same happened in Asia. UK did plenty of dirty things when Empire was strong too, the only reason it could not effectively oppose USSR after WW2 was because it was so weak so someone else had to do it - humans should be grateful that USA did what was necessary to win (without nuclear war), if they were Nazi Germany they'd just partition the world and UK and whole Europe in this case would have been under Soviet rule.

If the price for avoiding that was countering Soviet influence via terrorism in Cuba, Nicaragua then so be it - I'd rather take that than Soviet control: unlike you I know what it is, where as you got no clue which is why you should dedicate your time to learning horrors of Soviet regime before saying one bad word against USAs actions to counter it.

[dinker]

When was the last time you used some Cuban software? Where do Google, Microsoft, etc. come from? Average wage £12 a month:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ro-raul-castro

[M_B]

Cuba does not have nukes there only because of USA strong action - they tried to get them there but thankfully failed.

The USA were not run by crazy idiot who was using his shoe in UN - he also publicly said words to the effect that basically USA will get it (implying nukes) - all and other things such as crimes against humanity committed by Soviet Union makes actions by other countries designed for self defence against crazy Soviet regime justifiable, where as actions of the crazy regime ain't.

CIA does not run terrorist campaign against Cuba for a long time - you should check out what USSR was doing at the time in Vietan, Korea, Latin America etc.

What Soviet lovers really deserve is to get a few years in GULAG, or some uranium mines there - if you manage there a few years and still support USSR, then I'd listen to your words, until then you are just an idiot who has no clue what USSR really was (not far from nazies at all).

You misunderstand me ATW. I am not a supporter of Stalinism and critique of American foreign policy does not make me one. Infact I am not even talking about the USSR.

The facts remain - Kennedy instigated a terrorist campaign against Cuba and started the Cuban missile crisis. That terrorist campaign continues in one form or another whether you chose to accept that or not.

In addition to Cuba, the US also funded a terrorist campagin against Nicaragua and overthrew the regimes in Haiti and Panama. They also did the same in Iran, contributed to genocide in Timor and Turkey ... the list goes on but I suspect they will be ignored.

[AtW]

There were a few people I me who were openly anti-Castro, but not many.

I wonder why.

Nobody is hungry, eh?

Rationing in Cuba.

No crime? "Cow killers can get four to 10 years in prison under a toughened crime law adopted in January. Those who transport or sell the meat from an illegally slaughtered cow can get three to eight years."

[Paddy]

The negative posts seem to come from people who have never been to Cuba. As usual a load of b’locks from people who know frends who have read about it someware I was there nearly ten years ago and hired a car (not an old US banger but a VW Golf) . What struck me was:

(a) The freedom to roam the island.
(b) The lack of crime (Unlike my visit to the US)
(c) The friendliness of the people.
There was obvious poverty but nobody was starving. There were a few people I me who were openly anti-Castro, but not many. The guy I hired a car from was busy on the Internet surfing porn. He pointed out that it was expected that if you have a car you will give lifts to the locals if your are going in their direction. This was great fun and I gave lifts to school teachers, professionals and a government official.

There was street prostitution around the expensive hotels but a lot less that many other countries.

I damaged my leg swimming and it was patched up by a local doctor (not a tourist doctor) no charge. The medical system is so good that if ever a foreigner goes to Cuba he will get free treatment, however you can make a financial donation but they don’t ask.

There was shabbiness in many of the old buildings but this is down to the lack of money, I understand that this is now investment to bring these historical buildings up to scratch.

Cuba is one of the few places in the world where you can world around without the fear of being mugged.

[Purple Dalek]

Gitmo isn't Cuban. It's US sovereign soil.

And they ain't doing enough to extract info from those terrorists they've got there. Get the info using whatever means are neccassary, then shoot 'em quick.

Protecting the west is more important than not causing pain to Muslim terrorists.

Perversely enough, what you suggest is exactly what they want. It would thwart them more to let them go after giving them a kiss on the cheek.

[AtW]

Protecting the west is more important than not causing pain to Muslim terrorists.

It gives no results intelligence wise and put US in a very very bad light - this certainly caused the enemy to recruit a lot of new people who would otherwise not join them.

Obama will put it right.

[gingerjedi]

Gitmo isn't Cuban. It's US sovereign soil.

And they ain't doing enough to extract info from those terrorists they've got there. Get the info using whatever means are neccassary, then shoot 'em quick.

Protecting the west is more important than not causing pain to Muslim terrorists.

Yeh feck em' they're all guilty as hell, they don't deserve rights as humans do they...

That includes the 3 Afgahani kids they had locked up does it?

[Mich the Tester]

Protecting the west is more important than not causing pain to Muslim terrorists.

If we give up on human rights, what are we protecting that makes us so much better than Muslim terrorists?

[deano]

Gitmo isn't Cuban. It's US sovereign soil.

And they ain't doing enough to extract info from those terrorists they've got there. Get the info using whatever means are neccassary, then shoot 'em quick.

Protecting the west is more important than not causing pain to Muslim terrorists.

[gingerjedi]

Shocking human rights, internet mostly banned, health care was massively funded by the USSR but is going down hill quickly, prostitution is totally rife. everyone has to grow food themselves because there is not enough to go round and once Europe does not have enough money to fly there for holidays they will be buggered.

And of course when did you see a Cuban on holiday in the west?

The most shocking human rights abuses on Cuban soil are committed by American soldiers and the CIA.

[AtW]

2: The Americans deployed nuclear weapons in Turkey within range (16 mins according to Wiki) of Moscow.

Oh, one more thing - did the USA lie about placing tactical nukes in Turkey? USSR certainly denied they were placing those in Cuba - it took satellite photoes and other stuff to prove to the world that USSR was lieing about it.

Turkey was a member of NATO anyway.

[minestrone]

Shocking human rights, internet mostly banned, health care was massively funded by the USSR but is going down hill quickly, prostitution is totally rife. everyone has to grow food themselves because there is not enough to go round and once Europe does not have enough money to fly there for holidays they will be buggered.

And of course when did you see a Cuban on holiday in the west?

[AtW]

Cuba doesn't have nuclear weapons on its soil.

The only time they did have nuclear weapons was because

1: The CIA operated a terrorist campaign against Cuba (and still does).
2: The Americans deployed nuclear weapons in Turkey within range (16 mins according to Wiki) of Moscow.

These 2 events happened before Russia deployed weapons to Cuba and were the causes for it.

Cuba does not have nukes there only because of USA strong action - they tried to get them there but thankfully failed.

The USA were not run by crazy idiot who was using his shoe in UN - he also publicly said words to the effect that basically USA will get it (implying nukes) - all and other things such as crimes against humanity committed by Soviet Union makes actions by other countries designed for self defence against crazy Soviet regime justifiable, where as actions of the crazy regime ain't.

CIA does not run terrorist campaign against Cuba for a long time - you should check out what USSR was doing at the time in Vietan, Korea, Latin America etc.

What Soviet lovers really deserve is to get a few years in GULAG, or some uranium mines there - if you manage there a few years and still support USSR, then I'd listen to your words, until then you are just an idiot who has no clue what USSR really was (not far from nazies at all).