Reply to: Mumbai hostages

[TimberWolf]

AtW, I think you might be on to something, but allowing 15% of the population to regularly carry firearms, in order to create uncertainty in the minds of attackers, would never be allowed.
A better way to create uncertainty would be to allow 15% of hotels and schools to randomly arm their guests or pupils.

So you could ring up the maitre D at the Waldorf and say, 'ok, it's your week to be armed, come down to the station and pick up your armalites - NO you can't have the bazooka's, last you had those you launched a dawn raid on the ETAP, and caused several millions of pounds worth of improvements'

Why not just cut out on all the inefficiency and shoot every 15th guest?

[EternalOptimist]

AtW, I think you might be on to something, but allowing 15% of the population to regularly carry firearms, in order to create uncertainty in the minds of attackers, would never be allowed.
A better way to create uncertainty would be to allow 15% of hotels and schools to randomly arm their guests or pupils.

So you could ring up the maitre D at the Waldorf and say, 'ok, it's your week to be armed, come down to the station and pick up your armalites - NO you can't have the bazooka's, last you had those you launched a dawn raid on the ETAP, and caused several millions of pounds worth of improvements'

[Alf W]

Frankly anyone should have right to own firearm to defend their house - concealed carrying of firearms should require advanced license and not for everyone, but having a gun in your own house to defend yourself seems totally sensible to me.

I think that speaks for itself.

[sasguru]

Anyone else think that atW using a tragic event as a platform to mouth off his usual utter crap is in piss poor taste?
Welcome to my ignore list, atWat, you complete gormless feckwit.

[DiscoStu]

Please stop quoting AtWat, it kind of defeats having him on my ignore list

[JoJoGabor]

I think I know what's behind this. Someone let off some crackers at a party and this was mistaken for gunfire by vigilante hotel guests. One got his gun out so that he could sort out the situation, and of course so did others. Someone opened fire and then all hell broke loose. Before you know it the joint was trashed.

If they were armed another scenario could go like this...

Big Christmas party at the hotel. One jam tart left, two people go for it. One person misses out and is mighy peed off. An argument ensues and escalates until one guy with a concealed weapon pulls out his gun to threaten the other guy into giving up the jam tart. A bystander sees this and shoots ths gun-toting maniac who spills brain all over the Turkey. All other guests mighty peed off with this and shoots the guy who shot the guy and all hell breaks loose!!!

[Francko]

I admire Atw's consistency. His knowledge and wisdom about law and criminal justice is just as good as his views on economics.

[Moscow Mule]

The reason handguns are banned in the UK is red-top anger forcing the government to do something after Dunblane.

You're already allowed to have a gun at home if you are prepared to pay for it (training, security & time). Shotgun licences are available to almost anybody of good standing for the purposes of "Shooting Sports".

[AtW]

How does it work in the USA? Can you carry a pistol around with you anywhere?

It depends on a state. Some states allow concealed carrying some not, some require special license etc.

My view is that concealed carrying should require additional training and passing of tests to demonstrate that the person is away how to act correctly in situations, gun ownership should not be cheap - everyone should have 3rd party insurance too like with cars: I don't advocate 18 year olds having firearms, that's not right.

The reason is, we is civilised.

And the Swiss who have men with assault rifles at home are not?

Everyone's inalienable right not to be shot by a nutter takes priority. And we don't apply the death penalty to petty crimes, even if many CUK posters would support this policy

I believe it was very rarely that legal gun owner in the UK would do that - I think Labour overreacted for political reasons after Dunblane tragedy - it's like banning cars after someone gets drunk and kills people, something that kills every year a lot of people but neither alcohol nor cars are banned.

[TimberWolf]

If it is legal to own and bear firearms then it won't be up to hotel to decide if they allow someone legally carrying a firearm to take room there or not. Now if it comes to club then some restrictions may apply as it involved booze etc, no problem.

How does it work in the USA? Can you carry a pistol around with you anywhere?

I see no valid reason why UK should not have the same laws or even better ones.

The reason is, we is civilised.

Frankly anyone should have right to own firearm to defend their house - concealed carrying of firearms should require advanced license and not for everyone, but having a gun in your own house to defend yourself seems totally sensible to me.

Everyone's inalienable right not to be shot by a nutter takes priority. And we don't apply the death penalty to petty crimes, even if many CUK posters would support this policy

[AtW]

I don't know where you expect to use this gun that I hope you will never be allowed to carry 'for self-defence purposes' in the UK. What pub/club or hotel would want to admit an armed vigilante?

If it is legal to own and bear firearms then it won't be up to hotel to decide if they allow someone legally carrying a firearm to take room there or not. Now if it comes to club then some restrictions may apply as it involved booze etc, no problem.

I don't think UK will have legal gun ownership that allows concealed carrying any time soon, that's the reality of the situation (and I certainly respect law in this regard), but in my view it is not right. Handgun laws in France, Germany, Swissland are much more relaxed, I see no valid reason why UK should not have the same laws or even better ones.

Frankly anyone should have right to own firearm to defend their house - concealed carrying of firearms should require advanced license and not for everyone, but having a gun in your own house to defend yourself seems totally sensible to me.

Interesting note here that UK is piss poor when it comes to light firearms production: Glock, MP5 etc - all made by other countries.

[TimberWolf]

Yes and I like UK police for that.

They certainly won't be in favour of arming the population for sure but I can't see any other way out - police can't be everywhere on time, so denying responsible citizens tools that can be effectively used for self-defence is criminal in my view.

I don't know where you expect to use this gun that I hope you will never be allowed to carry 'for self-defence purposes' in the UK. What pub/club or hotel would want to admit an armed vigilante?

[AtW]

I believe when this issue came up last, the police were not in favour of being armed.

Yes and I like UK police for that.

They certainly won't be in favour of arming the population for sure but I can't see any other way out - police can't be everywhere on time, so denying responsible citizens tools that can be effectively used for self-defence is criminal in my view.

[TimberWolf]

Often in schools which are no-go area for concealed guns including teachers - that's why attackers choose those areas because they know they are not likely to face gunfire so they can kill people without risk (until the police arrives).

The solution is thus clear. Arm 1 in 10 of US school kids and/or school teachers. Darn these namby-pamby liberal-art American gun laws

I trust UK police. This does not mean they won't make mistakes however what I am confident about is that if police makes mistakes those mistakes won't be because they are corrupt or that Govt secretly ordered them to kill someone, mistakes can always happen.

I believe when this issue came up last, the police were not in favour of being armed. It would be an interesting state of affairs if the police were not armed, but 1 in 10 vigilantes were.

[AtW]

Not necessarily, people go on gun rampages quite regularly in armed US.

Often in schools which are no-go area for concealed guns including teachers - that's why attackers choose those areas because they know they are not likely to face gunfire so they can kill people without risk (until the police arrives).

Training and selection is a joke, and even police can't be fully trusted with them.

I trust UK police. This does not mean they won't make mistakes however what I am confident about is that if police makes mistakes those mistakes won't be because they are corrupt or that Govt secretly ordered them to kill someone, mistakes can always happen.