Reply to: Chavonomics

[swamp]

The French have replaced their workers with machines that make cars. Over strict employment laws mean it's cheaper to buy expensive robots than hire staff, so the few people who actually do have work 'contribute' enormous productivity.

Don't be fooled by French GDP figures and low working hours.

[EternalOptimist]

Not really - They actually invigorated it in a way.

In 284AD Diocletian decided to split the empire into two halves, Eastern and Western, each with its own emperor so it would be more manageable.

In 409AD Alaric the Goth (a Christian) conquered Rome and took over the Western half, moreorless where the previous rulers had left off, and in fact did a better job than most of those rulers.

The real "decline and fall" was in the Eastern half, with its capital in Constantinople. It lasted almost another 1000 years, until 1453 when the Turks took over. But throughout most of that time it was run much like Stalinist Russia, with a bloated bureaucracy controlling every aspect of peoples' lives and exacting huge taxes to pay for expensive and ineffectual wars and luxuries of a small elite.

So when EU functionaries gloat approvingly about the EU becoming like a modern Roman Empire (as some have been known to do), it's worth recalling that the cheerful capitalism and prosperity of the early days was over in no time, and followed by oppressive grinding feudalism as bad as medievil Russia (which took over many cultural aspects of the Eastern empire, such as the orthodox church, and even the ruler's name - Czar or Caesar).

That's what the real "decline and fall" is about - not city walls falling, and legions disbanding, but of opportunity and aspirations.

Bollox, nobody will read any of this as it's too long. Never mind, may as well post it all the same ...

more or less what I was on about. 'Infallible' institutions and ideas being overthrown.
public sector ?
public sector pensions ?
recycling ?
representative democracy ?
party political system ?
Banking sector ?


OH - Check out Belisarius if you get a chance. One of the greatest generals that ever lived, he was outshone by Caesar and Alexander because he only ever had a tiny army. He made a little go a very very long way, a truly amazing man. He kept on winning and winning till the emporer got scared and had a white hot poker applied to his eyes. He had promised never to have Belisarius killed or have blood drawn in any way.

[Bagpuss]

No party is facing reality because the reality is too horrible to contemplate.
Living standards will have to fall in real terms if the country is to live within its means.
All these economic shennangans are only postponing the inevitable - prepare for riots and civil unrest when the great British public realise that being British doesn't mean you are guaranteed a high standard of living.

I agree with you again (which of the SASguru triumvirate is this?).
We can't have a society with no poverty, where the lifestyle of those out of work is more or less the same as the middle class. Sonner or later we have to move back into economic realism.

[LazyFan]

I agree the frogs have it and do it better.

Also they have a better NHS and rail system.

But on a bright note Sarkosy is a Thatcherite so, he will tear all of that down. And they will be soon be working as rubbish as us for longer hours.

Just so, some Unions which are dying anyway will die quicker!

[expat]

…and in France, with fine weather, good food and attractive highly sexed women, why bother working too much?

Or take Italy; OK, so in the south they have a crime problem, but otherwise they have even better food, even better weather, no shortage of attractive women, all that wine, cool little cars, relaxed traffic police and a football team that actually wins things; who cares about GDP?

Maybe the French and the Italians are right.

Fair comments, but my point is that the French have about the same GDP/head as we do, for fewer hours worked per person, so they actually have a greater GDP/hour worked, i.e. they are more successful economically. But instead of trying to do something about that, we just try to tell it like it shows that we are better, when it really shows the opposite,

[OwlHoot]

Is it the Goths and the Visigoths?

Not really - They actually invigorated it in a way.

In 284AD Diocletian decided to split the empire into two halves, Eastern and Western, each with its own emperor so it would be more manageable.

In 409AD Alaric the Goth (a Christian) conquered Rome and took over the Western half, moreorless where the previous rulers had left off, and in fact did a better job than most of those rulers.

The real "decline and fall" was in the Eastern half, with its capital in Constantinople. It lasted almost another 1000 years, until 1453 when the Turks took over. But throughout most of that time it was run much like Stalinist Russia, with a bloated bureaucracy controlling every aspect of peoples' lives and exacting huge taxes to pay for expensive and ineffectual wars and luxuries of a small elite.

So when EU functionaries gloat approvingly about the EU becoming like a modern Roman Empire (as some have been known to do), it's worth recalling that the cheerful capitalism and prosperity of the early days was over in no time, and followed by oppressive grinding feudalism as bad as medievil Russia (which took over many cultural aspects of the Eastern empire, such as the orthodox church, and even the ruler's name - Czar or Caesar).

That's what the real "decline and fall" is about - not city walls falling, and legions disbanding, but of opportunity and aspirations.

Bollox, nobody will read any of this as it's too long. Never mind, may as well post it all the same ...

[BrilloPad]

I have been saying this occasionally for a while: we are becoming poorer, and what is worse, all we are doing about it is finding ways to deny it.

Example: "we have a longer workweek than the French. That's because they are lazy, but we don't mind putting in a bit of work".

Translation: Our productivity is lower, that's why we have to work more hours for the same GDP/cap.

Maybe its the longer hours that stops us getting anything done. I work the shoirtest hours on the team but I am the most productive. despite(or maybe because of?) the hours spent on cuk.....

[Ruprect]

Cue - George Orwells "1984"

I actually thought i wouldnt see it happen in my life time but im now convinced its no more than ten years away.

Keep voting Labour "you are free, to do as we tell you"

[NetwkSupport]

Yup, it sounds depressingly similar. As Mark Twain said "History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme".

Ever higher taxes to support a bloated centralized bureaucracy, which is ever more complicated, ineffective, and corrupt. Also price controls. Someone suggested mortgages capped at 3* earnings, which some might applaud, but before you know it the Government will be trying to cap the price of everything by decree, including food.

Cue - George Orwells "1984"

I actually thought i wouldnt see it happen in my life time but im now convinced its no more than ten years away.

[Mich the Tester]

Example: "we have a longer workweek than the French. That's because they are lazy, but we don't mind putting in a bit of work".

Translation: Our productivity is lower, that's why we have to work more hours for the same GDP/cap.

…and in France, with fine weather, good food and attractive highly sexed women, why bother working too much?

Or take Italy; OK, so in the south they have a crime problem, but otherwise they have even better food, even better weather, no shortage of attractive women, all that wine, cool little cars, relaxed traffic police and a football team that actually wins things; who cares about GDP?

Maybe the French and the Italians are right.

[EternalOptimist]

[QUOTE=zeitghost;698813]

I dread to think...

me neither, but this has got the makings of a great joke

[EternalOptimist]

[QUOTE=zeitghost;698794]Is it the Goths and the Visigoths?
QUOTE]

Something like that I suppose. Anyway, whats the difference between a Welshman and a VisiWelshman ?

[Doggy Styles]

Is it the Goths and the Visigoths?

Or throwing Christians to the lions?

Lord Mandelson ousts the idiot Gordon Brown and becomes Caligula.

[EternalOptimist]

Not sure I understand you. Do expand ....

one example of the top of my head

You have a situation where women are agitating for the vote, equal status, equal job opportunities etc they get tolerated, but dont get anywhere near what they want, and they never will.
Then you have a war, it becomes a total war. Everything is now up for grabs, all the barriers to women are ditched, temporarily, so that men can join up and women can take their place on the land.
After the war, you can't get the genie back into the bottle, and the upshot is that the womens cause has made a gigantic leap in a short amount of time, without too much aggro at all.

Other institutions have been tested to destruction, but, as you say, not neccesarily by war.
Serfdom/ plague.
Napoleon/national revenue.
WWI/education

What you seemed to be saying(in my mind) is that a lot of our 'infallible' systems and institutions are about to be revolutionised because they do not work any more, (and because we are now skint)

[OwlHoot]

time to read 'decline and fall of the Roman empire' to see what happens next eh?

Yup, it sounds depressingly similar. As Mark Twain said "History may not repeat itself, but it does rhyme".

Ever higher taxes to support a bloated centralized bureaucracy, which is ever more complicated, ineffective, and corrupt. Also price controls. Someone suggested mortgages capped at 3* earnings, which some might applaud, but before you know it the Government will be trying to cap the price of everything by decree, including food.