Reply to: People 'can't wait for ID cards'

[TimberWolf]

IMO, if the Conservatives tried to implement something like ID cards, and many other policies Labour have implemented over the years (e.g. mass immigration) there would have been riots on the streets.

[Doggy Styles]

Reading through this thread it seems the argument for ID cards has been well and truly lost.

I can't find any good reason for them, but I've found several good reasons against.

But will we get them anyway?

[Paddy]

You will be fined if your information on your ID card is not correct or up to date. This will include a list of ALL addresses that you reside or stay regularly. All properties that you own including those abroad. Any partner living with you.

Shadow home secretary Dominic Grieve, for the Conservatives, said the consultation document showed the ID scheme is "truly the worst of all worlds - expensive, intrusive and unworkable".

"At a time of economic hardship, the public will be dismayed that the government plans to fine innocent people for inaccuracies on the government's own database, using summary powers vested in the home secretary.

"The home secretary has confirmed the worst element of the scheme - a single, mammoth and highly vulnerable database exposing masses of our personal details to criminal hackers.

"Worse still, she has magnified the scope for fraud by allowing spot fines to be issued by email."

Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne said: "It is becoming clear how draconian the punishments will be for those that want no part in the government's illiberal and unnecessary identity database.

"Ministers are already admitting that people will be forced to pay more for the dubious privilege of an ID card than they originally promised.

"The government should do us all a favour and scrap this laminated poll tax, instead of making us all pay through the nose for it."

[EternalOptimist]

Incognito - I think you should look into: -

CAPS - Card And Payment System (government project of, oh 20 years, with the objectives of "Controlling benefit fraud by requiring production of ID card and correlation of information with back-end database.")

Also, while you're at it, look into the stats of how many calls NICO get every single day regarding incorrect or missing data.

Also, you might want to look into the first failed NIRS project, and the problems they are STILL experiencing with NIRS2.

If it wasn't Friday night I would sit here and put more than a seconds thought into this. 15 years working on government IT projects does not make me a fantasist in this area.

Sally, good post but it raises a very important question..
what area ARE you a fantasist in?

[SallyAnne]

Incognito - I think you should look into: -

CAPS - Card And Payment System (government project of, oh 20 years, with the objectives of "Controlling benefit fraud by requiring production of ID card and correlation of information with back-end database.")

Also, while you're at it, look into the stats of how many calls NICO get every single day regarding incorrect or missing data.

Also, you might want to look into the first failed NIRS project, and the problems they are STILL experiencing with NIRS2.

If it wasn't Friday night I would sit here and put more than a seconds thought into this. 15 years working on government IT projects does not make me a fantasist in this area.

[Ruprect]

All your data are belong to us:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7742619.stm

Fines of up to a grand if you get married, plus transexuals get taxed twice. You couldn't make it up.

[Bob Dalek]

Cheers PB.

I don't regurgitate the New Labour stuff; I just think that the idea of an ID card is good. Do I think they'll implement it right the first time? No, but hey ho I believe they'll get it there eventually. We'll never convince each other of our stances because you abhor the idea of an ID card; I'm totally the opposite and am willing to go through the pain of having it implemented.

TM, I don't doubt for one minute that more information will be added to the database when it's stable and I believe that if we get it running and working then a DNA profile will certainly be added to it, that is most probably decades away though. Your analogy of every government agency having access to all that information from day 1 is misguided, agencies will still have to apply to the IPS for specific data on an entity with justification as to why, all it means is that they can go to 1 point of contact instead of 5.

Anyway, enough of this serious chat, I want to get back to posting about AtW and Churchill making daisy chains.

that the entire nation's most personal data will be sold on e-Bay within the week.

[Incognito]

Cheers PB.

I don't regurgitate the New Labour stuff; I just think that the idea of an ID card is good. Do I think they'll implement it right the first time? No, but hey ho I believe they'll get it there eventually. We'll never convince each other of our stances because you abhor the idea of an ID card; I'm totally the opposite and am willing to go through the pain of having it implemented.

TM, I don't doubt for one minute that more information will be added to the database when it's stable and I believe that if we get it running and working then a DNA profile will certainly be added to it, that is most probably decades away though. Your analogy of every government agency having access to all that information from day 1 is misguided, agencies will still have to apply to the IPS for specific data on an entity with justification as to why, all it means is that they can go to 1 point of contact instead of 5.

Anyway, enough of this serious chat, I want to get back to posting about AtW and Churchill making daisy chains.

[TykeMerc]

Originally Posted by Incognito
I did address your concern. If commercial staff were given Read access to the database, there's absolutely nothing they can't obtain from that, that they couldn't get from Experian (apart from your Biometrics). Don’t forget, you can filter views on Databases so certain roles are limited to what they can view. As for government staff, they've got access to it all already mate, they just have to request it from the separate agencies i.e HMRC, CSA, DVLA, etc.

If you think for one second that a Government ID card database won't be extended to hold far far far more than is currently available from Experian which a commercial company must have your consent to consult then you're in deluded.
As you admitted a Government department has to apply to each agency with good reason to grab those details, with a catch all database those checks and balances will be gone, that amounts to a gigantic amount of power which can be misused.

I still can't see a single benefit and a huge number of drawbacks to us in Britain from having the ID card or database and your arguments have still not presented even a wobbly let alone rock solid Business Case for having them.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

You're getting personal again, this is why I don't discuss it with you, you really do get yourself worked up about it.

I mentioned Experian when comparing a commercial company having access to the database and mentioned that you could limit access so that a commercial company could only view what the CRA's hold, ie. D.O.B, address history, linked persons. The difference being they have a picture of you to compare against as well.

Again you're taking what I say and putting your twist on it, I never compared Experian with any government body. Read my posts again, I've quoted it below and colour coded it so you can differentiate between commercial and government:

Sorry - on this point you are right - I had missed the sublety of that point. I don't mean to be personal, but I do feel you are taking (and repeating) a lot of Home Office propoganda at face value.

[Incognito]

You are being as slippery as the politicians - you claimed that it's the same data that is available from Experian - it isn't. If it was, I wonder what 16 staff at the ID and Passport service were doing risking their jobs getting data they could've got for a few quid?

You're getting personal again, this is why I don't discuss it with you, you really do get yourself worked up about it.

I mentioned Experian when comparing a commercial company having access to the database and mentioned that you could limit access so that a commercial company could only view what the CRA's hold, ie. D.O.B, address history, linked persons. The difference being they have a picture of you to compare against as well.

Again you're taking what I say and putting your twist on it, I never compared Experian with any government body. Read my posts again, I've quoted it below and colour coded it so you can differentiate between commercial and government:

I did address your concern. If commercial staff were given Read access to the database, there's absolutely nothing they can't obtain from that, that they couldn't get from Experian (apart from your Biometrics). Don’t forget, you can filter views on Databases so certain roles are limited to what they can view. As for government staff, they've got access to it all already mate, they just have to request it from the separate agencies i.e HMRC, CSA, DVLA, etc.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

I never said it would, you've misquoted me.

Sorry - where did I misquote you again?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

......What you are forgetting though, is that this is not a whole lot of new information that is being collected about you, this is simply collating the information into a central database and linking it to a identifier. If someone really wanted information on you, they can get it.

You are being as slippery as the politicians - you claimed that it's the same data that is available from Experian - it isn't. If it was, I wonder what 16 staff at the ID and Passport service were doing risking their jobs getting data they could've got for a few quid?

.
As for your comment about David Blunkett, have you been to the US on holiday lately? Link

You're more than welcome to refuse to give them your prints, they just escort you to the plane heading straight back home with a nice great big red 'entry refused' stamp in your passport.

Now you're missing the point - of course I'm well aware of what the US is doing but they aren't demanding all the fingerprints of their own citizens - only those of foreign visitors. Thus I can choose not to go there.

Frankly I think we should take the prints of all US visitors if only to show what a stupid and futile excercise it is. Anecdotally, I am aware of a guy from New Zealand who was detained at LA in transit as there was a false match of his prints.

[Incognito]

Do we? There's a lot of cardholder-not-present Credit Card fraud out there (which government figures class as ID theft even though it's nothing of the kind) - something which ID cards will do zero to address.

I never said it would, you've misquoted me. As I said you'll find that commercial organisations will have to balance the time and effort to confirm an entity against the cost and potential fraud saving. I was comparing a payday cheque cashing organisation having the resources to confirm an ID card is genuine when someone cashes a £50 cheque against someone applying for a £400,000 mortgage.

[Incognito]

IPS dismisses 14 staff for data-protection breaches
The dismissals at the Identity and Passport Service, which is developing the National Identity Register, occurred over a three-year period.

Of 16 cases where data-protection regulations were breached, all but one involved members of staff who had legitimate access to the Passport Application Support System database, and who used this for unauthorised checks not related to their duties.

Link


Incorrect (ignoring the confusing double negative and assuming you meant "can") - Experian doesn't know your address if you have a valid reason for keeping it secret - witness protection, people avoiding violent partners, etc. This data will be in the NIR.

By the way, the term "biometrics" is being banded about freely. It's worth noting that current "biometric" passports only contain the biometric agreed by ICAO (and the US) which is a digital version of the photo stored on the passport chip.

Liars like David Blunkett are trying to pretend that "biometrics" means we must all have our fingerprints stored in a database or not travel - that is just nonsense.

I would be more concerned if you'd posted a link stating that the IPS has never found a case of a member of staff abusing their access rights in the last three years. It is the sad truth that the human is the weakest link in the security here. What you are forgetting though, is that this is not a whole lot of new information that is being collected about you, this is simply collating the information into a central database and linking it to a identifier. If someone really wanted information on you, they can get it.

The ICAO is still in the early stages. As I expressed earlier, I believe that ID cards won't be compulsory until 2016, that gives them 8 years to agree on a standard and implement it and if they do decide to enforce certain Biometrics, then they'll most probably collect it from you as you're leaving the country, otherwise you don't go.

As for your comment about David Blunkett, have you been to the US on holiday lately? Link

You're more than welcome to refuse to give them your prints, they just escort you to the plane heading straight back home with a nice great big red 'entry refused' stamp in your passport.