Reply to: British energy in the hands of the French state ...

[Peoplesoft bloke]

No, the reason the Windscale fire happened was that there was a piece of physics that nobody knew about yet, whereby energy could be stored in a crystalline structure (correct me if I'm hazy here) in a particular way, and released catastrophically.

Yes, but if they hadn't been told to use fuel containers larger than the original design size, their plan to use scaffolding poles to shift the burning materials out of the core would probably have worked.

[TimberWolf]

Perhaps we should have adopted it with a caveat that enterprises owned by other governments could not own any of ours?

We should stop bashing the Froggies...after all they have us by the gonads and might turn the lights off. A positive note about this that I suspect hasn't been much thought about: our women might adopt French custom and stop shaving and we can return to the days of bush.

[expat]

But can the UK private sector create/attract boffins - or competent people?

The criticism of the Chief Inspector of Nuclear Installations was withering: “The Plant was operated in a culture that seemed to allow instruments to operate in alarm mode rather than questioning the alarm and rectifying the relevant fault.”

Boffins, yes, we have plenty of talent. Workers who care about what they are doing? Less likely.

Edit: but I would blame management at least as much, for letting it happen.

...and the operators were in the habit of ignoring safety alarms anyway.

Workers who did that should not continue there. Managers who allowed it, or didn't know, or didn't care, should also be out.

[expat]

The French are breaking EU rules every day on foreign ownership. It is only the UK that has adopted EU law carte blanche.

Perhaps we should have adopted it with a caveat that enterprises owned by other governments could not own any of ours?

[The Lone Gunman]

I like the French. They still have some respect for their own country. They'd never let a British Company take over EDF, unlike our sell-out governments who will sell anything to any spiv who comes along.

The French are breaking EU rules every day on foreign ownership. It is only the UK that has adopted EU law carte blanche.

[expat]

Eh? We built 'em in the fifties - and the only reason the Windscale fire happened was because the politicians demanded more plut for weapons.

No, the reason the Windscale fire happened was that there was a piece of physics that nobody knew about yet, whereby energy could be stored in a crystalline structure (correct me if I'm hazy here) in a particular way, and released catastrophically.

[Bagpuss]

Eh? We built 'em in the fifties - and the only reason the Windscale fire happened was because the politicians demanded more plut for weapons.

Sizewell B was built in the 80s, my dad worked on it.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Let's not start suggesting that Electricité de France is a French company. You can get into trouble for doing that:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4462162.stm

That's one of the problems - British Gas are tulipe, but rather than be any use and a supplier to be proud of they try and have a go at EDF just for being French.

[TimberWolf]

Eh? We built 'em in the fifties - and the only reason the Windscale fire happened was because the politicians demanded more plut for weapons.

Incidentally you may be interested in this Cambridge professors take on nuclear safety at THORP:

The THORP reprocessing facility at Sellafield, built in 1994 at a cost of £1.8 billion, had a growing leak from a broken pipe from August 2004 to April 2005. Over eight months, the leak let 85 thousand litres of uranium-rich fluid flow into a sump which was equipped with safety systems that were designed to detect immediately any leak of as little as 15 litres. But the leak went undetected because the operators hadn’t completed the checks that ensured the safety systems were working; and the operators were in the habit of ignoring safety alarms anyway.

The safety system came with belt and braces. Independent of the failed safety alarms, routine safety-measurements of fluids in the sump should have detected the abnormal presence of uranium within one month of the start of the leak; but the operators often didn’t bother taking these routine measurements, because they felt too busy; and when they did take measurements that detected the abnormal presence of uranium in the sump (on 28 August 2004, 26 November 2004, and 24 February 2005), no action was taken.

By April 2005, 22 tons of uranium had leaked, but still none of the leak-detection systems detected the leak. The leak was finally detected by accountancy, when the bean-counters noticed that they were getting 10% less uranium out than their clients claimed they’d put in! Thank goodness this private company had a profit motive, hey? The criticism of the Chief Inspector of Nuclear Installations was withering: “The Plant was operated in a culture that seemed to allow instruments to operate in alarm mode
rather than questioning the alarm and rectifying the relevant fault.”

If we let private companies build new reactors, how can we ensure that higher safety standards are adhered to? I don’t know.

The chances of screwing up big-time using modern off-the-peg reactor designs is probably remote these days. But can the UK private sector create/attract boffins - or competent people? Maybe in the US where they'd pay them well, but over here? What we appear to have gone with instead is a safer (French) government run and profit driven solution (way to go) - and owned by a foreign power to boot. £12 billion is also nice to pocket, as is the increased share price settled with British Energy shareholders. Government and shareholder concerns obviously relate to the more practical things in life, such as money

[Diver]

They own our water, half our motorway bridges. half our gas supplies, so why not our electricity as well?

That villa in the south of France is looking ever sweeter

(and I'll be on the winning side)

[thunderlizard]

Careful now!

Let's not start suggesting that Electricité de France is a French company. You can get into trouble for doing that:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4462162.stm

[TimberWolf]

Eh? We built 'em in the fifties - and the only reason the Windscale fire happened was because the politicians demanded more plut for weapons.

Yeah, but in the fifties we weren't a nation of shiny suited management consultants / hairdressers But more importantly the policy now is to let private enterprise (i.e. shareholders and other numpties more interested in profit than customer service or safety) build and run these projects. This is fine for most things, but nuclear energy? I also don't trust our rocket scientists, they mostly seem carp. Mind you the more you learn the more you see everyone is carp and probably always have been. The irony though is that while our policy is to let private enterprise handle our energy needs, it's being taken over by the French government A very shrewd policy

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Yeah, it's nuts, but not as nuts as if we tried to build our own nuclear reactors...BOOM!

Eh? We built 'em in the fifties - and the only reason the Windscale fire happened was because the politicians demanded more plut for weapons.

[TimberWolf]

I like the French. They still have some respect for their own country. They'd never let a British Company take over EDF, unlike our sell-out governments who will sell anything to any spiv who comes along.

Yeah, it's nuts, but not as nuts as if we tried to build our own nuclear reactors...BOOM!

[HeliCraig]

Ah, but did anybody here the CEO of EDF on PM this evening.

He was asked, twice, and avoided both times:

"If this was the other way around and a large British company was buying all of France's nuclear power generation, do you think the French government would allow it?"

Now, we all know the answer to this really. And even if they did, the Unions would scuper it. The French have their own set of rules, and the rest of us have to live with that!!