Reply to: Oracle Apps Market and Rates

[schindler]

Some good advice from Peoplesoft Bloke there. Saved me a bit of a job.

Reading your first post, I just thought "yes, that's contracting".

Don't worry about the few-week gaps between projects. Everybody gets those except generalists who aren't very fussy about what they do. I certainly do and it's not a problem.

If you think you can charge more, do. You'd be crazy not to. Up to £600 is reasonable for what you do, though it will help to have a track record. To that end, try and be a bit 'stickier' when you're on site. Of course getting your current job done is the main thing, but also keep suggesting other improvements you think you could make. Some of them will get taken on, and even if they don't you'll look like a 'can-do' guy.

Read a book on negotiation too - I recommend "Guerilla negotiating". I know my negotiating style is less textbook and jerkier than most people's (that DJ example is a favourite of mine, though I first heard it about butchers and sausages - plus ca change...)

Great advice peoplesoft Bloke and thunderlizard...Cheers Guys...

Now a bit of career advice please needed from oracle apps guys out there.
As mentioned previously been doing apps 'Techie' work for the past 8 odd years and getting tired of it....looking lately about moving into the functional side of apps.

i am not quite sure which domain though, as i have done most of financials(the usual AR,AP,GL PO etc) technical work,but i have also done supply chain/crm/a bit of hrms and project accouting as well.

Might lean towards financials though....what domain would you suggest to get into the functional side of things which is hot in the market?.

Does OCP certification in a functional module help at all? if yes then i have a cunning plan to do OCP and then go permie for a while(I know less money,dignity etc etc, but New skills u see! ) and then revert back to contracting once I have some good experience to back up my CV...

What do u guys think?

[thunderlizard]

Some good advice from Peoplesoft Bloke there. Saved me a bit of a job.

Reading your first post, I just thought "yes, that's contracting".

Don't worry about the few-week gaps between projects. Everybody gets those except generalists who aren't very fussy about what they do. I certainly do and it's not a problem.

If you think you can charge more, do. You'd be crazy not to. Up to £600 is reasonable for what you do, though it will help to have a track record. To that end, try and be a bit 'stickier' when you're on site. Of course getting your current job done is the main thing, but also keep suggesting other improvements you think you could make. Some of them will get taken on, and even if they don't you'll look like a 'can-do' guy.

Read a book on negotiation too - I recommend "Guerilla negotiating". I know my negotiating style is less textbook and jerkier than most people's (that DJ example is a favourite of mine, though I first heard it about butchers and sausages - plus ca change...)

[Peoplesoft bloke]

I agree what the rate's going to be before going to the interview - never known it to increase after first mentioned (not surprisingly). If you talk about 400-450, you'll be getting 400, so if you must talk ranges say 550-600 if you'd be happy with 550.

As an aside, my ex-brother in law is a DJ. There is plenty of rate competition and he often gets told "my mate can do it for x" where x is less than his quoted price - to which he replies "get your mate to do it, then". About 90% of the time he then gets "he can't do that date" so he says "I can do it cheap too on days when I'm not available - but if you want it that night, this is the price"

The point is that agents won't tell you the truth about rates - they just won't.

The best piece of advice I had on starting out was not to sell myself short.

All that said, there is of course a point at which high rates interspersed with long bench periods becomes the same end result as longer gigs at lower rates with less bench time.

Just my 2p - I'm not an expert - good luck.

[schindler]

When the agent negotiates your rate with you, that is the point in the whole process where he determines his income. The client is there, the contractor has got the position, the client has their contract ready.... all that remains is for the agent to determine how much money he will get out of it, and how much money will pass through his hands but not stick on the way (i.e. your rate). Expect him to lie steal cheat and kill to minimise that. Unfortunately he "knows the market" because he and his colleagues keep trying to get contractors to work for less, and they continually see how well it plays.

Your response is:
1. know the market too. Talk to others who do the same.
2. try the market too: if you don't sometimes ask for more, you never know what you might get (if you are never refused then you are asking too little). But it is true that you are unlikely ever to get 650 from an agent who once got you for 400. He has you tagged as 400-a-day for ever.
Especially, keep going for contracts when you don't need one, pitching the rate high.
3. keep all your contacts and try going direct. Clients may piss you about in other ways but not often in rate. And you're 15% ahead from the start.

well i think the problem lies in the fact that the agent asks/makes me to agree on a particular rate(400/450) before he ever puts me forward/interviewed, which remains the same once i get the contract.
does it work the same way for u guys or u do u negotiate rate after the interview?

[oracleslave]

When the agent negotiates your rate with you, that is the point in the whole process where he determines his income. The client is there, the contractor has got the position, the client has their contract ready.... all that remains is for the agent to determine how much money he will get out of it, and how much money will pass through his hands but not stick on the way (i.e. your rate). Expect him to lie steal cheat and kill to minimise that. Unfortunately he "knows the market" because he and his colleagues keep trying to get contractors to work for less, and they continually see how well it plays.

Your response is:
1. know the market too. Talk to others who do the same.
2. try the market too: if you don't sometimes ask for more, you never know what you might get (if you are never refused then you are asking too little). But it is true that you are unlikely ever to get 650 from an agent who once got you for 400. He has you tagged as 400-a-day for ever.
Especially, keep going for contracts when you don't need one, pitching the rate high.
3. keep all your contacts and try going direct. Clients may piss you about in other ways but not often in rate. And you're 15% ahead from the start.

Are you quoting me because we are in agreement?

[expat]

You need to actively come up with a strategy to maximise your rate. If an agent has placed you at £400 per day previously it's going to be difficult to justify why you are worth £650 next time round, particularly if it might affect his margin. Agents are ruthless and if the suspect a hint of weakness will batter your expectations down in a heartbeat...pocketing the difference themselves of course.

When the agent negotiates your rate with you, that is the point in the whole process where he determines his income. The client is there, the contractor has got the position, the client has their contract ready.... all that remains is for the agent to determine how much money he will get out of it, and how much money will pass through his hands but not stick on the way (i.e. your rate). Expect him to lie steal cheat and kill to minimise that. Unfortunately he "knows the market" because he and his colleagues keep trying to get contractors to work for less, and they continually see how well it plays.

Your response is:
1. know the market too. Talk to others who do the same.
2. try the market too: if you don't sometimes ask for more, you never know what you might get (if you are never refused then you are asking too little). But it is true that you are unlikely ever to get 650 from an agent who once got you for 400. He has you tagged as 400-a-day for ever.
Especially, keep going for contracts when you don't need one, pitching the rate high.
3. keep all your contacts and try going direct. Clients may piss you about in other ways but not often in rate. And you're 15% ahead from the start.

[Bagpuss]

I can do sql, SAS,Splus, Statistical modelling and yet there are better rates in less skilled IT jobs. There aren't enough people to fill the vacancies in my industry yet the rates are comparably low. How the bobbins does that work?

[schindler]

lol

seems to me you need to work through different agents.

400 is too low unless you really want the role to learn something new or walk to work or are not up to snuff.

Well I can't say i am not upto snuff as I have got good references both from permie work and contracting...but sadly the reality is for 400/day i am not learning anything new and making a daily 65 mile each way trip

[DS23]

lol

seems to me you need to work through different agents.

400 is too low unless you really want the role to learn something new or walk to work or are not up to snuff.

[TheBigYinJames]

Developing new/customizing standard professional forms,reports,workflows,discoverer,OAF,ADF..the list is endless

Schindler's list is good.
Damn, couldn't resist.

[schindler]

So would I, but I was hoping for a bit more gen from someone who does this kind of work, so I can (purely out of interest) compare it with an equivalent PeopleSoft techie role

Developing new/customizing standard professional forms,reports,workflows,discoverer,OAF,ADF..the list is endless

[Peoplesoft bloke]

A bit of SQL I would think !?

So would I, but I was hoping for a bit more gen from someone who does this kind of work, so I can (purely out of interest) compare it with an equivalent PeopleSoft techie role

[oracleslave]

Out of interest, what kind of stuff do tech consultants in Oracle Apps do?

Over to you SallyAnne...

[rootsnall]

Out of interest, what kind of stuff do tech consultants in Oracle Apps do?

A bit of SQL I would think !?

[Peoplesoft bloke]

Out of interest, what kind of stuff do tech consultants in Oracle Apps do?