Reply to: First Time Contract Worker

[Moscow Mule]

2) negotiate, what have you got to lose?, for an increase in rate to offset the holiday deduction

The holiday pay isn't an actual deduction it's just delayed payment for when you actually take time off.

Have a look at this waste of our taxes

[chef]

ok,

WHS = What he said (liitle bit sexist but generally on here it's mainly he with the odd feisty she and a lot of fembots created by others)

1st tip - always read your contract

2nd tip - ALWAYS READ YOUR CONTRACT

From experience contracting is a tough game as in most cases we (the small 1 man band or slightly higher) against them (the multi national corp's) who have no intention or care how much you pay if the FD says dont pay just yet they dont. This results in the very fast growing of a tough skin and the only thing you have in defence against this corporate bullying is the flimsy bit of paper with the terms and conditions written on it and after a while the comfort in knowing you can live a year or more from your current bank balance if need be. That should explain the "i've been through it myself, learnt the hard way and so why should i help you wipe your arse if you dont do some basic research first" style responses you've been getting, they're all cuddly bears mainly (some slightly greener and alien liek than others)

From what you've said and reading the response you may well be a "contractor" in the eyes of your agency, if you go through an umbrella then your effectively an employee of the umbrella rather than fending for yourself.

Read the Free Stuff section here ----------------------->

As I see it you have 3 choices:

1) do nothing and continue as is, maybe moan on here about doom and gloom along with most of the others, if so welcome you'll fit right in, maybe grow a thicker skin first though

2) negotiate, what have you got to lose?, for an increase in rate to offset the holiday deduction

3) form your own limited (nixon williams and SJD accountancy would be highly recommended from most on here among others as a starting point) and get rid of the umbrella, you'll then be in charge of your companies finances and can therefore pay yourself whatever you like along with every so often having a great in depth chat with yourself about what payrise/dividend/laptop/company mobile you believe your worth.. always an entertaining chat, especially if it involves brownie points with the Company Secretary (Mrs Pearson i'd presume) while having a "Company Meeting" in a posh restaurant (all expensable.. read the guides -------> )

either way HTH (hope this helps )

Chef

[dannypearson]

I like an arse with attitude.

You will get holiday pay if you take holidays. This is no different to an employee. They rack up holiday entitlement as they go and then get paid whne they are off. If they have holidays left at year end they either get paid them or lose them. They usualy get paid them when they leave employment.
Make sure that you will not lose the money if you dont take the holidays.

Is holiday pay not additional to money you've already earned?
As a temporary worker for all of the various agencies I've worked for I was paid an hourly rate, as well as accruing holiday pay. When I took holiday I was paid for it. I had no deductions from my wages for holiday pay, I was paid my standard hourly rate * the hours that I'd worked, and then if I had holiday I also got paid for hours I didn't work.

This is not the same. It is not holiday pay. I am getting paid less each week than I have actually earned, then get the money back if I claim holiday. I'm still not actually getting paid for this holiday - my toal wages are still only the same as the ammount of hours I've actually worked.

[The Lone Gunman]

If I'm entitled to holiday pay then surely I should actually get holiday pay?

I like an arse with attitude.

You will get holiday pay if you take holidays. This is no different to an employee. They rack up holiday entitlement as they go and then get paid whne they are off. If they have holidays left at year end they either get paid them or lose them. They usualy get paid them when they leave employment.
Make sure that you will not lose the money if you dont take the holidays.

[dannypearson]

WHS

Er....WHS?

[Old Greg]

Thank you, that's the sort of answer I was looking for!


Firstly, as somebody totally new to this I looked at the forum headers and they all related to IT contractors, which I'm not, so I went for the general thread.
Secondly, having knowledge (hard-earned or otherwise) doesn't make you better than people who haven't learnt it yet. Get off your high horses!


I've been doing various temporary jobs since January. I received a phone call from an agency offering me a job. I went to the interview. I started work. I received the contract a few days later. It wasn't until after the contract was signed that I received a phone call from the umbrella company advising me that I was actually a contract worker, not a temp. Admittedly I should've read the contract properly, but at the same time I wasn't informed at any stage that this was going to be anything other than standard temporary work.


If I'm entitled to holiday pay then surely I should actually get holiday pay? This is just a delayed payment of money I've already earned and am entitled to. If I'm not entitled to any holiday pay, why do they need to take money from me?


I thought this would be the case. They're obviously earning interest off the money they deduct from me as well as their fees.

They do like to have their fun. Best thing you can do is read a beginner's guide.

It's worth taking the time, and you should find out things you'd never even thought about. Come back afterwards with any specific questions and someone will help you out (eventually).

[Moscow Mule]

You've got it a litlle bit arse about face, but let me explain your working situation to you.

Agency pays x per hour.

Orangegenie invoices x per hour on your behalf.

You are an employee of orangegenie, but the only money they have to pay you comes from x * 37.5 per week (or whatever).

As you are an employee, they have to deduct:

Holiday Pay (EU Law)
Employers NI (UK Law)
Employees NI (UK Law)
PAYE (UK Law)
Orangenies profit (just sensible really)

from your weekly pay-packet from the amount they have available (x * 37.5).

Now, you won't see anything but your holiday pay again.

A solution:

To prevent them from taking your holiday pay, arrange your contract so that:

"hours per week" = "contracted hours" * "holiday pay factor".

You then take:

"hours per week" minus "contracted hours" holiday per week

- about half a day per weekend should do it.

[Xenophon]

zzzzzzzzzz

Milan.

WHS

[milanbenes]

zzzzzzzzzz

Milan.

[dannypearson]

As far as I recall, my mate, who also works through Orange Genie has to jump through the same sort of hoops to get his money...

This nonsense was brought in to suit some directive or other from Brussels.

I suspect that you'll probably have to live with it.

P.S. The signal to noise ratio is awful in General, you're much more likely to get sensible answers to questions in Accounting or Business.

Thank you, that's the sort of answer I was looking for!

That comes with the territory mate, we cant help it. Especialy with newbies posting serious questions in the general thread instead of the serious advice threads.
We also do not lightly give our hard earned knowledge away.

Firstly, as somebody totally new to this I looked at the forum headers and they all related to IT contractors, which I'm not, so I went for the general thread.
Secondly, having knowledge (hard-earned or otherwise) doesn't make you better than people who haven't learnt it yet. Get off your high horses!

You seem to somehow be taking it out on because because you are too dumb to understand the contract you signed!

I've been doing various temporary jobs since January. I received a phone call from an agency offering me a job. I went to the interview. I started work. I received the contract a few days later. It wasn't until after the contract was signed that I received a phone call from the umbrella company advising me that I was actually a contract worker, not a temp. Admittedly I should've read the contract properly, but at the same time I wasn't informed at any stage that this was going to be anything other than standard temporary work.

As I understand it you are an employee of your brolly and therefore are entitled to holidays holiday pay probably earned at 1.8 days per month or whatever permies get these days. The client only pays when you are on deck so when you take holidays the brolly needs to have funds to pay you as an employee.

If I'm entitled to holiday pay then surely I should actually get holiday pay? This is just a delayed payment of money I've already earned and am entitled to. If I'm not entitled to any holiday pay, why do they need to take money from me?

The easiest way to think of a brolly, is to think of them as just another agency in the chain taking a cut. It is not quite true, but good enough. They are actually taking more of a cut that normal, so they have money to pay your holiday. This may be a more cynical view than other's posts, but there you have it.

I thought this would be the case. They're obviously earning interest off the money they deduct from me as well as their fees.

[Gonzo]

The easiest way to think of a brolly, is to think of them as just another agency in the chain taking a cut. It is not quite true, but good enough. They are actually taking more of a cut that normal, so they have money to pay your holiday. This may be a more cynical view than other's posts, but there you have it.

If you were the agency why go to the expense of putting someone on your payroll, being responsible for employers NI, and also for holiday pay?

Much more straight-forward to put the temp through an umbrella company so that they are responsible for employers NI and holiday pay themselves.

Is this an "unintended consequence" of improving the employment rights for temporary employees?

And, more importantly, is it good news for contractors.

[Integrity]

Hi,
I've just started a new job through an agency, and have since found out that it is actually contract work rather than agency work.

The umbrella company who arranges my payroll (orangegenie) deduct around £16 per week from my wages which they class as holiday pay. I can then claim this back as and when I chose to take any holiday.

Firstly, this is obviously not "holiday pay", it's just a delayed payment of money that I have already earned. Am I right in thinking that, as a contract worker, I'm not entitled to holiday pay?

Secondly, if I'm not entitled to holiday pay, why is it that companies have to deduct money for holidays? Surely if I know I'm not entitled to holiday pay, it is my responsibility to make adequate provisions for taking time off?

Is it actually a legal requirement for umbrella companies to deduct holiday pay from me? If so, am I able to opt out of this? The company says that I can claim this money back at any time, but I'd rather not have to fill out request forms each week!

The easiest way to think of a brolly, is to think of them as just another agency in the chain taking a cut. It is not quite true, but good enough. They are actually taking more of a cut that normal, so they have money to pay your holiday. This may be a more cynical view than other's posts, but there you have it.

[basshead]

Grow some balls

I am not qualified to give this advice.

[The Lone Gunman]

Preferably without being patronising or condescending!

That comes with the territory mate, we cant help it. Especialy with newbies posting serious questions in the general thread instead of the serious advice threads.
We also do not lightly give our hard earned knowledge away.
You seem to somehow be taking it out on because because you are too dumb to understand the contract you signed!

As I understand it you are an employee of your brolly and therefore are entitled to holidays holiday pay probably earned at 1.8 days per month or whatever permies get these days. The client only pays when you are on deck so when you take holidays the brolly needs to have funds to pay you as an employee.

Grow some balls, drop the brolly and start your own Ltd.

I am not qualified to give this advice. I have never used a brolly company.

[dannypearson]

I have no idea, but I think you are the sort of "contractor" Dawn Primarolo had in mind when she dreamt up the phrases "silly contractors" and "disguised employees".

Er, ok, thanks for taking the time to post such a constructive and useful comment

this is shirley a windup ?

Danny Pearson, is this your real name ?

Milan.

I don't see how my name has any relevance to my question?

The holiday pay thing was dreamed up by our masters in Euroland...

Does this mean that it is a legal requirement for them to deduct money from me then?

Apologies in advance if this is a stupid question (which from the tone of Dimprawn's response it may be), but I am totally new to contract work and was not told that this was contract work until I had started the job. I've tried searching for this information but to no avail. Is anyone able to help in anyway? Preferably without being patronising or condescending!