Reply to: PM, PM or PM

[sasguru]

He believed he was a sas guru and yet he ended up in a middle-management useless position because he was crap; if he was as good as he claims he would have been a contractor earning real money now. How do you think he can be any good as a low-mid manager with no real power?

Why do you assume everyone is as mediocre as you?

[Tonic]

Another point, how many project managers do you know, who can keep their cool, be fairly relaxed and stay on top of things.

mmm, I've maybe met one, and he was a "technical Architect", which to my observations, means he can write a Functional Specification.

[Francko]

If you are a good PM, I wanna work with you.

He believed he was a sas guru and yet he ended up in a middle-management useless position because he was crap; if he was as good as he claims he would have been a contractor earning real money now. How do you think he can be any good as a low-mid manager with no real power?

[Tonic]

The problem with techies is that they lack imagination and can never see the big picture. Stick to your code-monkeying and leave the hard stuff to us.

If you are a good PM, I wanna work with you.

[Tonic]

The problem is if the PM type is a permie, chances are the more senior management will see you as the problem for not being able to work with him, as you're a lot more dispensible. And to me blaming other people even if it's completely justified feels like making excuses for myself. So instead I'll get stressed and miserable and try and do a good job despite the idiots in management. It's a cliche, but that's what being a "team player" is all about.

Depends what you're tryng to do, or your attitude to your work. If you're jsut there for the money, ok, play with the team however bad an sometimes, incompentant that team is.

But if you're trying to build portfolio, maybe get recognised.. the least you want is management who is reasonable, or capable under pressure, who can organise a plan of action. Someone who can bunch bugs together for a single period of time.

My current PM, is so random, and hapless, he's in way over his head. Maybe a small time web company, but not on blue chip projects.

[VectraMan]

Why are you stressed? Understandable if you're a permie, but not if you're on a contract. Do what you can, but you won't be there long. Just keep firing off the invoices, this is why you are there. You aren't looking for a 'promotion' or working all hours in the hope of an annual 5% pay increase. Invoice invoice invoice, gig ends, time off, rinse, repeat.

No, but you are (probably) looking to finish the contract, maybe get an extension, or a good reference if you need it. So it's not really true to say there's nothing in it for you.

But much more importantly than that, as Tonic said I don't like looking like I'm not good at my job, even if it doesn't actually make a difference to me.

[Cowboy Bob]

99% of PMs are a useless waste of space who do nothing all day apart from go to endless meetings with other projects managers in other departments, suggest wild ideas without understanding what the hell they are talking about, and leaving early to play golf.

The 1% that serve a purpose are the ones that get the coffee in...

[Francko]

I think the need for contractors would be dramatically reduced if all the PMs of various types woke up tommorrow suddenly good at their jobs. Long may the cluelessness continue.

Woudln't be too sure about that. If you have competent managers who can lead a project in the due time, they might use the right contractors more effectively (and the right choice of the right contractor should be one of the main duty of a good manager) and instead they will also maximise the return on the project; of course, if the pm keeps wasting time and drag people into useless tasks and mislead them all the time, they probably want to have the highest number of permies available to falsely reduce their increased costs, so I am not really sure that good management necessarily needs less contractors.

[shoes]

instead I'll get stressed and miserable and try and do a good job despite the idiots in management. It's a cliche, but that's what being a "team player" is all about.

Why are you stressed? Understandable if you're a permie, but not if you're on a contract. Do what you can, but you won't be there long. Just keep firing off the invoices, this is why you are there. You aren't looking for a 'promotion' or working all hours in the hope of an annual 5% pay increase. Invoice invoice invoice, gig ends, time off, rinse, repeat.

[shoes]

I disagree with that. Clueless techies get spot on almost immediately (and most of the time they don't have political skills like credit taking, other people blaming, pointless debating etc. to defend themselves) while many managers can get away even if they are clueless.

I think its easier to hide your incompetence if you are providing 'soft skills' such as a team leader/management type role, but I've worked with good and bad in both camps.

I wouldn't totally agree with your vision that clueless managers can help your contract. True they might prolonge it more than needed but in the end you will appear responsible for not delivering in time.

Ive known situations where a contractor has been bought in solely to be a scape goat for a failing project, in those cases the need for a contractor is there solely due to poor management. Also a project may be running late requiring a 'ramping up' of 'resources' (to use pointy haired boss speak) creating a requirement for contractors that may not have come about were it not for the project being poorly managed up to that point. I think the need for contractors would be dramatically reduced if all the PMs of various types woke up tommorrow suddenly good at their jobs. Long may the cluelessness continue.

Sure you can be blamed for not delivering when it isn't your fault. It happens all the time to contractors and permies. You need to be thick skinned as a contractor I think, comes with the gig.

[VectraMan]

people who insinuate I'm not good at my job, really piss me off. Bad management makes me look bad, and stops me getting better portfolio. Also the stress factor of having to produce goods to your own high standards but with poor management is almost non negotiable.

The problem is if the PM type is a permie, chances are the more senior management will see you as the problem for not being able to work with him, as you're a lot more dispensible. And to me blaming other people even if it's completely justified feels like making excuses for myself. So instead I'll get stressed and miserable and try and do a good job despite the idiots in management. It's a cliche, but that's what being a "team player" is all about.

[Tonic]

I disagree with that. Clueless techies get spot on almost immediately (and most of the time they don't have political skills like credit taking, other people blaming, pointless debating etc. to defend themselves) while many managers can get away even if they are clueless. I wouldn't totally agree with your vision that clueless managers can help your contract. True they might prolonge it more than needed but in the end you will appear responsible for not delivering in time.

people who insinuate I'm not good at my job, really piss me off. Bad management makes me look bad, and stops me getting better portfolio. Also the stress factor of having to produce goods to your own high standards but with poor management is almost non negotiable.

The only way you can possibly look at a contract like that, is that you're getting paid for it, so to hell with them, let them screw it up, do what you gotta do.. and get paid, week in, week out.

[Francko]

What we are seeing in this thread is how the management types think they know better than the techies, and the techies think they know better than the management types. Each case is different of course. I come from the techie side and in my experience you get clueless developers just as you get clueless management.

I disagree with that. Clueless techies get spot on almost immediately (and most of the time they don't have political skills like credit taking, other people blaming, pointless debating etc. to defend themselves) while many managers can get away even if they are clueless. I wouldn't totally agree with your vision that clueless managers can help your contract. True they might prolonge it more than needed but in the end you will appear responsible for not delivering in time.

[shoes]

What we are seeing in this thread is how the management types think they know better than the techies, and the techies think they know better than the management types. Each case is different of course. I come from the techie side and in my experience you get clueless developers just as you get clueless management. But speaking as a ('bums on seats') contractor, so what? As a permie at the start of my 'career' I was constantly being fustrated by the stupidity of management, like you see in dilbert. Now that Im a contractor, the more inept the management are, the longer the project takes, the more money I make. Managers, please keep up your delusions of self importance that allow you to have the confidence to follow through on your ridiculous ideas. Thanks.

[Tonic]

Alot of Project managers are just account managers who talk to developers and relay that the project's current state of affairs is not good enough and they want 6 new features added in that weren't in the initial spec, or even in the overall scope of the project.

My general experiance is that Project Managers generally dont know what's going on because they have no relative tech savvy at all.

The "project manager" i'm currently working under, is so far out of his league, he's need 2 and 6 pence, to catch the bus back.

I, personally, would do a HUGE amount better than him, but I would call myself "Head of Development" and talk to the client via the Account Manager.. of course, after I wake up from my dream and face reality again, I'll end up talking straight down the line to the client.. which to be honest, takes balls for a permie to do, because they want stability, and cant afford to be sacked cos they lost a client.

You're not gonna loose a client, if you get the results, on time, mostly on budget. (there's more to it than that, but I'd ramble on for ages if I said )