Reply to: Blue Planet in Green Shackles

[DodgyAgent]

The only sure thing you can say about science is its a way of quantifying our understanding of something at the present time, how many time has science proved its self wrong with greater understanding , lefts face it they used to give radioactive isotopes to people as a cure for cancer 100 years ago.

On the subject of greener power I think there is a very real conspiracy by a) the people producing fossil fuels and b) the people manufacturing the products that use them, they don't want the expense of re-tooling their production lines to say hydrogen fuel cell cars when there’s still another 30-50 years oil in the ground, the real change will come when the oil runs out and we have no choice but to go green, this is something the green lobby seem to have missed, oil and coal are a finite resource they've only got another 30 years of campaigning then they will be out of a job anyway...

Do you really think that countries like China will collude with the big oil producers upon who they are so dependent on oil & gas to NOT develop the technology to remove this dependence? Do you think that Gazprom would collude with Exxon to halt the development of alternative ways of running armed vehicles and aircraft?

[lambrini_socialist]

The only sure thing you can say about science is its a way of quantifying our understanding of something at the present time, how many time has science proved its self wrong with greater understanding , lefts face it they used to give radioactive isotopes to people as a cure for cancer 100 years ago.

On the subject of greener power I think there is a very real conspiracy by a) the people producing fossil fuels and b) the people manufacturing the products that use them, they don't want the expense of re-tooling their production lines to say hydrogen fuel cell cars when there’s still another 30-50 years oil in the ground, the real change will come when the oil runs out and we have no choice but to go green, this is something the green lobby seem to have missed, oil and coal are a finite resource they've only got another 30 years of campaigning then they will be out of a job anyway...

there are no big conspiracies, just low-level apathy and good old human fallibility. it would be nice to blame all that's wrong in the world on some big left/right wing (delete as applicable) conspiracy or bogeyman, but the fact is things are the way they are simply because that's just how people happen to be going about their business at this moment in time.

[tay]

the environmentalist cause (and anything else which threatens to fractionally curtail the individual's god-given right to make as much money as possible and do as they please without thinking about the wider impact of their actions) is clearly a loony-leftist consipiracy against Decent Hard Working Common Sense Folk and couldn't possibly have a basis in genuine heart-felt conviction (let alone solid science), right?

on an unrelated note, check this program out, it's magic, and i guarantee it would beat most of you lot in a Turing test.

brainwashed ignorant crap

[DodgyAgent]

The only sure thing you can say about science is its a way of quantifying our understanding of something at the present time, how many time has science proved its self wrong with greater understanding , lefts face it they used to give radioactive isotopes to people as a cure for cancer 100 years ago.

On the subject of greener power I think there is a very real conspiracy by a) the people producing fossil fuels and b) the people manufacturing the products that use them, they don't want the expense of re-tooling their production lines to say hydrogen fuel cell cars when there’s still another 30-50 years oil in the ground, the real change will come when the oil runs out and we have no choice but to go green, this is something the green lobby seem to have missed, oil and coal are a finite resource they've only got another 30 years of campaigning then they will be out of a job anyway...

That's a bit like saying the bow and arrow manufacturers are stifling the development of the gun because they own all the trees.

Do you really think developer, scientists, entrepreneurs are going to hold back on the development of something that will make them billions?

[lambrini_socialist]

Didnt someone post a story recently on here where it was claimed that green is now a religion for some people? Anybody daring to question your beliefs is evil and should be ignored. If you are a bad person..but recycle.. you are a good person and your sins are forgiven. Some people in this thread are definately almost religous about green matters.

vacuous tosh

[tay]

Didnt someone post a story recently on here where it was claimed that green is now a religion for some people? Anybody daring to question your beliefs is evil and should be ignored. If you are a bad person..but recycle.. you are a good person and your sins are forgiven. Some people in this thread are definately almost religous about green matters.

[lambrini_socialist]

the environmentalist cause (and anything else which threatens to fractionally curtail the individual's god-given right to make as much money as possible and do as they please without thinking about the wider impact of their actions) is clearly a loony-leftist consipiracy against Decent Hard Working Common Sense Folk and couldn't possibly have a basis in genuine heart-felt conviction (let alone solid science), right?

on an unrelated note, check this program out, it's magic, and i guarantee it would beat most of you lot in a Turing test.

[shelby68]

The only sure thing you can say about science is its a way of quantifying our understanding of something at the present time, how many time has science proved its self wrong with greater understanding , lefts face it they used to give radioactive isotopes to people as a cure for cancer 100 years ago.

On the subject of greener power I think there is a very real conspiracy by a) the people producing fossil fuels and b) the people manufacturing the products that use them, they don't want the expense of re-tooling their production lines to say hydrogen fuel cell cars when there’s still another 30-50 years oil in the ground, the real change will come when the oil runs out and we have no choice but to go green, this is something the green lobby seem to have missed, oil and coal are a finite resource they've only got another 30 years of campaigning then they will be out of a job anyway...

[Board Game Geek]

I find the best way to engage the "green movement" and help spread the word, is to militantly apply its posturings and credos.

People start off thinking you are a greenie and "doing your bit".

Then you turn up the message, to the point where they are constantly berated, blamed and bludgeoned for their lack of effort.

At which point, they give up.

Mission accomplished.

It's easier to fight the enemy from within, than from outside.

[TimberWolf]

Please can you explain more about why you think this?

It's the way science works?

[sasguru]

The good science is the historical data (obtained from ice cores etc), the bad all the rest, i.e. interpreting that data and the predictive models. .

Please can you explain more about why you think this?

[BrilloPad]

The whole environment debate has been hijacked by the left exactly as the Czech president describes. The left have always wanted to restrict individual enterprise and economic progress. No better bandwagon to jump on now that socialism has well and truly been nailed as an evil destructive ideology.

So by default many on the right now take the view that the "green debate" having been hijacked by the left is no longer to be taken seriously. The environmental debate has, to further complicate things for the rest of us, also become a focus of one upmanship amongst the scientific and political communities around the world.

Is that what the original post was trying to say?

You should write a book DA...

[TimberWolf]

Don't want to distract too much from the general, "I know you are, but what am I?" level of debate, but has anyone ever seen any science behind the global warming, no sorry, climate change, no I meant isn't it wet today theory? As you might guess I think it's a crock, but that's irrelevant. Show me the science and I will change my opinion.

I've tried looking but just get overwhelmed by a deluge of graphs and models, neither of which have any more than a circumstantial relationship to scientific analysis. I did find out that there's about 3000 gigatons of CO2 in the atmosphere, unspecified carbon sink capability, and human contribuiton (1990) of about 7.1 gigatons p/a (0.23%). The lifetime of CO2 is I think 12 years, but of course the atmosphere is very dynamic. Also, sun activity is increasing, and 500m years ago there was 20x the CO2 content...

The good science is the historical data (obtained from ice cores etc), the bad all the rest, i.e. interpreting that data and the predictive models. The whole thing is poorly understood, but looks bad in parts. Especially if you live near a coast. CO2 has been way higher than current levels in the past for example, but is rising faster now than seen ever before in ice cores. Polar ice sheets are receding, but we’re in an ice age. For most of Earths history there was no ice, even on mountains. It’s getting hotter, but we evolved when it was much hotter than today. The climate is almost certainly changing because of mans activities (farming, etc) and always has for one reason or another.

[oracleslave]

Don't want to distract too much from the general, "I know you are, but what am I?" level of debate, but has anyone ever seen any science behind the global warming, no sorry, climate change, no I meant isn't it wet today theory? As you might guess I think it's a crock, but that's irrelevant. Show me the science and I will change my opinion.

I've tried looking but just get overwhelmed by a deluge of graphs and models, neither of which have any more than a circumstantial relationship to scientific analysis. I did find out that there's about 3000 gigatons of CO2 in the atmosphere, unspecified carbon sink capability, and human contribuiton (1990) of about 7.1 gigatons p/a (0.23%). The lifetime of CO2 is I think 12 years, but of course the atmosphere is very dynamic. Also, sun activity is increasing, and 500m years ago there was 20x the CO2 content...

You are Michael Crichton and I claim my 5 free copies of 'State of Fear'.

[ace00]

Sideways

Don't want to distract too much from the general, "I know you are, but what am I?" level of debate, but has anyone ever seen any science behind the global warming, no sorry, climate change, no I meant isn't it wet today theory? As you might guess I think it's a crock, but that's irrelevant. Show me the science and I will change my opinion.

I've tried looking but just get overwhelmed by a deluge of graphs and models, neither of which have any more than a circumstantial relationship to scientific analysis. I did find out that there's about 3000 gigatons of CO2 in the atmosphere, unspecified carbon sink capability, and human contribuiton (1990) of about 7.1 gigatons p/a (0.23%). The lifetime of CO2 is I think 12 years, but of course the atmosphere is very dynamic. Also, sun activity is increasing, and 500m years ago there was 20x the CO2 content...