Reply to: The Left’s war on Britishness

[WageSlave]

I missed that documentary. Probably I was too busy reading magazines in the bathroom
I agree about Tarzan. Plus he favoured a department of economics. Hmmm, a pro-European, interventionist politician....wonderful!

Biochemistry....you are a man of many surprises.

[Lucifer Box]

Lucifer, I don't have the details to hand (sound familiar?), but I believe there was some precedent preventing him from succeeding Maggie.

Have you read 'What might have been', edited Andrew Roberts? There's a piece in the book by Simon Heffer outlining an alternative history in which the Brighton bomb killed MT.

Lucifer, what subject is your degree in?

I haven't read that, but there was one of those "If...?" documentaries about that last year which hypothesised Tarzan becoming PM on the grounds that Whitelaw would have resigned after the immediate crisis had passed. It reasoned that much of the Thatcher economic reforms would not have happening as Heseltine was known for favouring state intervention in failing industries, leaving Britain a much weaker economy as a result.

My degree was in Biochemistry.

[WageSlave]

Lucifer, I don't have the details to hand (sound familiar?), but I believe there was some precedent preventing him from succeeding Maggie.

Have you read 'What might have been', edited Andrew Roberts? There's a piece in the book by Simon Heffer outlining an alternative history in which the Brighton bomb killed MT.

Lucifer, what subject is your degree in?

[Lucifer Box]

Lucifer, there was a rule at the time barring Whitelaw from taking the role of PM. Most likely Tarzan would have been PM.

Was there? I didn't know that. You learn something new every day.

I know Chamberlain asked Churchill in 1940 if he believed there was any reason why, in the 20th Century, a peer should not be Prime Minister (meaning Lord Halifax). Churchill refused to answer (he suspected it was a trick question) as he knew full well there was no reason why not but, obviously, wanted the job himself.

This is in large part down to how Margaret Thatcher and Tony Blair have changed the perception of what the job of Prime Minister is. As we all know, we do not elect Prime Ministers (in theory) as the job, at least until the 1940s was to act as the chair of the cabinet and report to the monarch once a week, and that was pretty much it. In fact, the term "Prime Minister" when coined was a derogatory term used to describe the chief toady to the monarch. Even into the 1990s, there was no task that only the PM could perform. TB has, of course, changed much of that.

[WageSlave]

Even so, they still retained great political clout long after that. If you look at the 19th Century, of the 19 serving prime ministers 11 of them were peers, including the Marquess of Salisbury who held office until 1902. In fact, had Margaret Thatcher been killed by the IRA in the Brighton bomb, Lord Whitelaw, an unelected member of the House of Lords, would have become Prime Minister.

Lucifer, there was a rule at the time barring Whitelaw from taking the role of PM. Most likely Tarzan would have been PM.

I certainly take your point about political power...but it's ever decreasing.

[Lucifer Box]

They have a history in Wales, Scotland and Ireland too, even if not of world class empires. And it would be nice to recognise that too.

There's plenty of teaching of Welsh history in Welsh schools (plus the Welsh language of course). I'm sure the same is true for Scotland and Ireland.

[Lucifer Box]

Obviously the rest of the colonies hate us for our history

I think you will find this is far from the case universally. For example, a recent opinion poll conducted in Sierra Leone revealed a majority of the population in favour of recolonisation.

[Francko]

They have a history in Wales, Scotland and Ireland too, even if not of world class empires. And it would be nice to recognise that too.

[Lucifer Box]

Lucifer, I obviously missed the point. I usually miss such things. I apologise for being a dullard
Is the middle class really to blame for the demise of the upper class? Surely the upper class has increasingly been a class of leisure since the introduction of the House of Commons.

Even so, they still retained great political clout long after that. If you look at the 19th Century, of the 19 serving prime ministers 11 of them were peers, including the Marquess of Salisbury who held office until 1902. In fact, had Margaret Thatcher been killed by the IRA in the Brighton bomb, Lord Whitelaw, an unelected member of the House of Lords, would have become Prime Minister.

[Rebecca Loos]

Obviously the rest of the colonies hate us for our history and some other countries seem to use it as an excuse to join in. Very few actualy like us even though most are quite happy to live in the UK for the lifestyle it affords.

If you had been to the colonies, you'd realise that Britain is not hated! What we do is offer constructive criticism (under the guise of piss-taking, which is the British sense of humour that we inherited).

I think much of the criticism that comes from the ex-colonies is like the stuff you'd direct to a brother or sister: you take the p1ss, you argue, you fight even, but as part of a same family.

Another reason for the criticism aimed at Britain is that it is not now what it used to be and the criticism comes from people being disappointed in a once great nation that has kind of lost its greatness along the way.

Finally the stuff aimed at Britain from other countries (e.g. Chirac slagging off the food) comes from jealousy from those countries who know they have not contributed as much. They'll never admit it, but they know they haven't and it pisses them off. Because their time has passed too and they won't get another chance for the next 1,000 years.

Truth is, there is lots to admire and respect about Britain, as the article said, it has contributed so much to the modern world, and it is quite amazing for a nation that was never huge in terms of population. Most of its achievements have occurred in the past, true, but in the spirit of the global village of today, now is the time to think in terms of anglo-saxon world rather than just the UK: so any achievement from any English-speaking country can be said to belong to the great Anglo family of country. For example, if a Kiwi achieves fame by, say, toppling down GB's unfaitr tax system, it can be counted as a global Anglo achievement and Britain can be proud of it.

OK, I'll stop here before veering towards utter nonsense....

[WageSlave]

Damn.

Gunman, you are a racist. How dare you consider yourself English! You should cry each night for the sins of your ancestors, importing all those poor slaves. Go scour your skin!

Happy now?

[WageSlave]

I think that was the whole point of the documentary, Slave. All of these qualities have been legislated away / removed / rendered laughable by the liberal middle class and all that's left is enjoying yourself.

Lucifer, I obviously missed the point. I usually miss such things. I apologise for being a dullard
Is the middle class really to blame for the demise of the upper class? Surely the upper class has increasingly been a class of leisure since the introduction of the House of Commons.

[Lucifer Box]

Lucifer, have to disagree with you about the class documentary. The presenter claimed the upper class represented tradition, spirit, courage and roots – all laudable qualities, and sadly lacking in our current society. But I saw precious little evidence of those qualities in last night’s bunch. What I saw was a group of people travelling around the world enjoying themselves whilst doing no real work. I’m not saying that’s all the upper class does – but it’s all we saw last night, and hardly the stuff to inspire national pride.

Gunman, completely agree with you.

I think that was the whole point of the documentary, Slave. All of these qualities have been legislated away / removed / rendered laughable by the liberal middle class and all that's left is enjoying yourself.

[The Lone Gunman]

Gunman, completely agree with you.

Damn.

[WageSlave]

Lucifer, have to disagree with you about the class documentary. The presenter claimed the upper class represented tradition, spirit, courage and roots – all laudable qualities, and sadly lacking in our current society. But I saw precious little evidence of those qualities in last night’s bunch. What I saw was a group of people travelling around the world enjoying themselves whilst doing no real work. I’m not saying that’s all the upper class does – but it’s all we saw last night, and hardly the stuff to inspire national pride.

Gunman, completely agree with you.