Reply to: Bank Card Fraud - Like this?

[threaded]

I think this is a very good point.

They say a similar thing in Holland: don't worry about your bike being stolen it stops the smack-heads robbing old ladies.

[Platypus]

Who knows, maybe these easy money keep those guys from mugging people or robbing their houses.

I think this is a very good point.

[PAH]

Or as happened to me

5. They don't have the resources to watch the tape anyway.

I naturally was not allowed to watch the tapes for them as it would prejudice any id parade.

If a guy I know who mans a CCTV is typical, the tapes will be full of totty staggering around the place at closing time. Probably a well known ploy by the ram-raiders and thieves, the old distract security with a shapely bird wearing next to nothing technique.

[PRC1964]

Or, where the CCTV happens to be a sync'ed array at HDTV resolution, 60 fps, recorded onto hard drives:

4. All police officers brought in for the viewing shut their eyes or turn away at precisely the moment the offences occur.

Or as happened to me

5. They don't have the resources to watch the tape anyway.

I naturally was not allowed to watch the tapes for them as it would prejudice any id parade.

[PAH]

Haven't you learnt anything about CCTV camera's yet?

The CCTV cameras either:
1. Didn't have tapes in them
2. Weren't working
3. Where pointing the wrong way

You're not wrong.

My parents have a CCTV system overlooking the car park near their house. One day my dad's car got vandalised so he naturally got onto the police to check the CCTV. They said it isn't switched on at weekends so nothing they can do. Unbelievable.

[threaded]

Haven't you learnt anything about CCTV camera's yet?

The CCTV cameras either:
1. Didn't have tapes in them
2. Weren't working
3. Where pointing the wrong way

Or, where the CCTV happens to be a sync'ed array at HDTV resolution, 60 fps, recorded onto hard drives:

4. All police officers brought in for the viewing shut their eyes or turn away at precisely the moment the offences occur.

[SueEllen]

. What?! What are all these effing CCTV cameras for? Surely they could've seen who was on the street at exactly that time, got a description and kept a look out for similar looking guys in the area. Nah, bollocks to it, we'll file it under "B" for "bin, let the banks deal with it"

Haven't you learnt anything about CCTV camera's yet?

The CCTV cameras either:
1. Didn't have tapes in them
2. Weren't working
3. Where pointing the wrong way

[Cheshire Cat]

I agree with the sentiment that Banks and Police are rarely that keen to investigate this type of fraud as they seem to see it as too much hassle.
I once pulled a fake ATM card reader off the front of a natwest ATM in london. Some guy approached me, snatched it off me and ran off down the street with it. I rang my bank to cancel my card, rang natwest to tell them what happened ("thanks, bye") and rang the police to let them know when/where so they could investigate; they just said since I no longer had the "evidence" there's not much they could do. They knew it was happening in the area, but couldn't do much to stop it. What?! What are all these effing CCTV cameras for? Surely they could've seen who was on the street at exactly that time, got a description and kept a look out for similar looking guys in the area. Nah, bollocks to it, we'll file it under "B" for "bin, let the banks deal with it"

[Moscow Mule]

For example before chip and pin was introduced one shopping centre (can't remember which one) had an agreement with all the retailers in the shopping centre that everytime someone used a card they left a thumb print on the shops copy of the receipt. They found the amount of fraudenlent transactions went down to 0 within a month. (Fingerprints are only about 80% accurate)

I seem to remember a certain "gentleman's club" in Las Vegas requiring a thumb print if you wanted to use a credit card.*

* or so my friends tell me - I was tucked up in bed at the time

[threaded]

Unfortunately most online companies seem to be carp at this and don't even take simple precautions.

Online companies are supposed to implement a specification from the merchants. Visa's version is called 3-D secure something or other well I think that's what it's called. Amusingly if you go to the site for a copy of the spec. it'll tell you the certificate is invalid. Which tells me just how serious they are to stop all this.

Anyways, the upshot is that it's really expensive to do correctly, so most online e-tailers don't bother.

[SueEllen]

The problem is you can't rely 100% on technology to solve your fraud problems you have to use a bit of social engineering.

For example before chip and pin was introduced one shopping centre (can't remember which one) had an agreement with all the retailers in the shopping centre that everytime someone used a card they left a thumb print on the shops copy of the receipt. They found the amount of fraudenlent transactions went down to 0 within a month. (Fingerprints are only about 80% accurate)

I also use to have a signature and photo card like some of my friends. None of us had that particular card used fraudently.

Unfortunately most online companies seem to be carp at this and don't even take simple precautions.

[PAH]

The government already does call this Identity theft and uses it as a justification for ID cards - despite the fact that ID cards are of no possible value at all against cardholder not present frauds.

And there's little to protect ID cards from the same kind of identity theft that's been going on since identities were recorded.

The worrying thing is like Sue Ellen says, it just gives the governments and authorities/banks an excuse to shift responsibility onto the public because it's a difficult and expensive problem to solve, so they don't intend to.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

The bank, the police and the government will call this identity theft which is the scourge of the modern age and not their fault at all.
It will not be regarded as theft or fraud as those crimes would have to appear on official figures and we dont want the crime rate going up do we.

Chip and pin was pushed through on its security benefits.
I have been asking for years how a simple four figure pin is more secure than a signature or a more complex system involving pictures.


I know signatues can be forged, but it is a lot harder to do than just nicking a pin.

The government already does call this Identity theft and uses it as a justification for ID cards - despite the fact that ID cards are of no possible value at all against cardholder not present frauds.

[PAH]

I have been asking for years how a simple four figure pin is more secure than a signature or a more complex system involving pictures.


I know signatues can be forged, but it is a lot harder to do than just nicking a pin.

Signatures rely on someone comparing them with a known genuine copy, usually from the back of the card itself. So either the comparison isn't done or the forgery is sufficiently close, or the card itself is fake with an easily replicable signature.

For once, biometrics (fingerprints and eye scans) may be the only workable solution, but will obviously cost a lot lot more so will be slow to materialise. Even then the database of biometrics being compared to needs to be secure and uncorruptable. If the cards themselves hold the data, there's always room for circumvention, probably by faking the card to hold the scammers biometrics instead of the card holders.

[SueEllen]

Chip and pin was pushed through on its security benefits.
I have been asking for years how a simple four figure pin is more secure than a signature or a more complex system involving pictures.


I know signatues can be forged, but it is a lot harder to do than just nicking a pin.

It isn't.

The banks just wanted a way to make the public and the retailers liable for fraud on their behalf.