Reply to: Russia Undemocratic.

[AtW]

Nope, I meant fascism - read the definition and it pretty much descrives Putin's Russia

Unfortunately Putin is a nationalist - he is much closer to nazies than to fascists, what happened in Chechnya certainly qualifies for genocide (just like it happened in former Ugoslavia), recent polls indicate that majority of Russians now (but not before) think that Russia is for ethnic Russians only - under Putin nationalism reared its ugly head first time since about 80 years - communists replaced nationalism with their own ideology, but now that this has fallen down Putin opted for nationalism.

The big difference between fascists and nazies is genocide - Putin is much closer to nazies. The west is looking at it without motion just like it did during Hitlers time.

[snaw]

Nazi state, yes - fascists were in Italy.

If you read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by Shirer you will find that what Putin did in economy and other fields is very much what the nazies did in their time.

The only big difference is that corruption among nazies was much lower and they were not buying English football clubs - that's pretty much the only hope really, but with all the nazism Putin is generating there might come some really bad nationalistic leader that will get support of the people prepped up by Putin.

Nope, I meant fascism - read the definition and it pretty much descrives Putin's Russia:

fas·cism (fshzm)
n.
1. often Fascism
a. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

As opposed to:

Na·zism (nätszm, nt-) also Na·zi·ism (-s-zm)
n.
The ideology and practice of the Nazis, especially the policy of racist nationalism, national expansion, and state control of the economy.

[DodgyAgent]

But at least under PR you would be able to get rid of them sooner.

And the other good news is that nothing would get doene, which given the incompetence of these people would not be a bad vote. I'm in.

[TheFaQQer]

Only because they have no track record. Their policies are very much along the lines of the status quo but with higher taxes and total capitulation to the EU

But at least under PR you would be able to get rid of them sooner.

[shaunbhoy]

In a non-democracy like Russia the only way to do that is to die - something the state very much obliges if you don't support their candidates.

Careful alexei. That is sedition! I just had a visit from a badly-dressed white bloke asking if I knew where you lived. I told him somewhere in Cloud-Cuckoo land so it is only a matter of time before he tracks you down and "re-educates" you.

[DodgyAgent]

. And in most other ways they make the other two seem plausible.

Only because they have no track record. Their policies are very much along the lines of the status quo but with higher taxes and total capitulation to the EU

[AtW]

I've voted in three general elections, and each time my vote has been discarded because somebody else got a majority in my area.

Where's this democracy I've heard so much about?

Democracy does not mean that your candidate always wins.

What democracy means is that even if your candidate loses 3 times you won't go to prison for supporting it, or lose your job for voting that person, and your candidate will actually have chance to be elected without being killed - that's democracy, not what you think it is.

If you want to have your candidate win all the time then move into electoral zone where similiarly minded people live. In a non-democracy like Russia the only way to do that is to die - something the state very much obliges if you don't support their candidates.

[shaunbhoy]

I've voted in three general elections, and each time my vote has been discarded because somebody else got a majority in my area.

Where's this democracy I've heard so much about?

Proportional representation would be more democratic than the f"irst-past-the-post" tulipfest we are stuck with, but the only Party in favour of that are the Lib Dems. And in most other ways they make the other two seem plausible.

[VectraMan]

I've voted in three general elections, and each time my vote has been discarded because somebody else got a majority in my area.

Where's this democracy I've heard so much about?

[AtW]

I find it truly scary that Russia seems to have reverted into some sort of fascist state

Nazi state, yes - fascists were in Italy.

If you read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by Shirer you will find that what Putin did in economy and other fields is very much what the nazies did in their time.

The only big difference is that corruption among nazies was much lower and they were not buying English football clubs - that's pretty much the only hope really, but with all the nazism Putin is generating there might come some really bad nationalistic leader that will get support of the people prepped up by Putin.

[snaw]

May well be true, but it'll still be a long way removed from the farce that is Russian democracy.

I find it truly scary that Russia seems to have reverted into some sort of fascist state (In the truest sense of the word), and is ruled by essentially the ex secret service, who're in denial about losing their empire (They're even in denial that they had an empire) and have a chip on their shoulders ever since against the west.

[DodgyAgent]

Russia is definately not a democracy, never said that it was. In fact its a police state with no independent judiciary, gulags and precious little adherenece to human rights.

And yes, I was focusing on the PM, which was my mistake, but we did vote for the Labour Party and we did vote for the EU, thank you for providing evidence of adherence to due democratic process

Why then does the Torygraph publishing sensationalist stuff like this?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/politic...democratic.htm


I know its a blog but its linked to the front page of a major UK newspaper and it comparing the EU to tinpot dictatorships and Russia (Dictatorship but not tinpot).

Surely this is really bad journalism? I thought the Telegraph was at least sensible but it appears to be a bit of a rant.

Isnt this really comparing apples and pears or are we generally living in a state with no due democratic process. Is this guy just an irresponsible ranter or does he have a point?

He has a very valid point. If you think about it our democratic system is very tenuous. We have little choice about who runs the country whether it is centre right Tories with their policies or centre left labour with more or less the same policies. Neither party is prepared to challenge a status quo that is so obviously useless in so many areas. To add insult when we think that OK maybe at least our incompetent politicians are at least our own incompetrent politicians they then gladly hand over much of our powers to the European Union without us having a say in the matter.

The European Union itself is totally undemocratic, which doesnt matter at the moment simply because we are still free to conduct our day to day business. The EU is at the moment pretty insignificant responsible only for taking a sizeable chunk of our money and distributing it amongst its officials and cronies.
As soon as the EU gets its new powers and becomes Europes central figurehead responsible for diplomacy, defence et al then all I can say is "watch this space"

DA in "off to Russia" mode

[AtW]

Gordon Brown does not kill opposition leaders using poisons or has assassins killing female journalists shot in the back in their own houses to then only say to the world that the journalist was not very important.

Also Gordon Brown does not have tame electrocal commission that would refuse to register for votes his competitors and instead register totally unelectable people.

And most importantly - Gordon Brown did not blow up underground on 7/7 in order to get himself elected - nobody caught MI5/6 agents with explosives on their hands in immediate vicinity of the terrorist act, unlike FSB folk who got caught red handed putting sacks with explosives that they later claimed to be sugar and that it was all training exercise.

On the basis of detailed study of the history of the Third Reich I can categorically state that Hitler was elected in a democratic way than Putin himself and now Medvedev, even though there are great many similiarities.

[snaw]

Well his specific point appears to be regarding having a referendum on Europe. We may agree with his sentiment (I'd like it, but I'm sure they avoid it cause they know they'll get battered), but having referendums isn't really part of the democratic process here.

We elect a parliamentary democracy, and essentially hand them the power to make these decisions, for which they'll be held accountable at the next election. That's our version of democracy, like it or not. Hope I'm not being too patronising.

Back to his point, which appears to be your basic run of the mill eurosceptic rant, on his blog where as far as I'm aware most political journalists have license to vent their opinions which may differ from the organisation they work on.

Bottom line, think it through for yourself, you're a grown man.

[sunnysan]

Was going to but it's not worth the effort of bothering.
If you think democracy in Russia is even valid, and in addition more advanced than in the UK you're a lost cause.

Russia is definately not a democracy, never said that it was. In fact its a police state with no independent judiciary, gulags and precious little adherenece to human rights.

And yes, I was focusing on the PM, which was my mistake, but we did vote for the Labour Party and we did vote for the EU, thank you for providing evidence of adherence to due democratic process

Why then does the Torygraph publishing sensationalist stuff like this?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/politic...democratic.htm


I know its a blog but its linked to the front page of a major UK newspaper and it comparing the EU to tinpot dictatorships and Russia (Dictatorship but not tinpot).

Surely this is really bad journalism? I thought the Telegraph was at least sensible but it appears to be a bit of a rant.

Isnt this really comparing apples and pears or are we generally living in a state with no due democratic process. Is this guy just an irresponsible ranter or does he have a point?