Reply to: Ex-CIA agent: We used torture and it worked

[BrowneIssue]

Doesn't matter if he got life sentence in proper court - torturing people is becoming scum like nazies and communists.

You mentioned the 'N' people first. You lose. Damn.

That means the pro-torturers get to win.

If you want to be like them then fair enough - I would support law that would allow to torture people who, like you, advocate torture.

Oh! So YOU are a pro-torturer. Phew! What a relief.

It's OK folks, the anti-torturers have won the argument. Torturing is officially bad.

At least we can move on now.

[AtW]

apology

inconvenience

Now now, this guy is so braindead that picking on his poor spelling is really beyond the point.

[DiscoStu]

go to jail for a very long time = out in 24 months with an apoligy for any inconvenienced caused

Mailman

apology

inconvenience

[AtW]

go to jail for a very long time = out in 24 months with an apoligy for any inconvenienced caused

Doesn't matter if he got life sentence in proper court - torturing people is becoming scum like nazies and communists. If you want to be like them then fair enough - I would support law that would allow to torture people who, like you, advocate torture.

[Mailman]

Only court can make a decision that someone is a terrorist. Should this decision be ever made that person would go to jail for a very long time.

go to jail for a very long time = out in 24 months with an apoligy for any inconvenienced caused

Mailman

[BrowneIssue]

I'm talking about a scenario in the UK in which a terrorist commits an atrocity, there is no room for doubt, so it's pointless going to trial, and prior to the execution (he's going to die anyway), there may be some information that may be useful through torture.

So instead of executing the Brazilian on the underground, they should have tortured him to death instead.

Excellent plan. Well done.

Go study some history.

[AtW]

Strangely, a remarkably effective technique against terrorists.

Only court can make a decision that someone is a terrorist. Should this decision be ever made that person would go to jail for a very long time.

[BrowneIssue]

Well, the simple answer is to not torture them then.

Arrest then, give them a jolly good ticking off, and send them on their way.

I'm sure that will work.

Strangely, a remarkably effective technique against terrorists.

[daviejones]

They don't tell you everything - they say what they do, but they don't say the words being said while this is done - these words are far more important from torture point of view then actual action, that's why they erased those tapes.

Yep, they also did what they call a "lite" version. The real version includes putting clingfilm round the face, cutting a small hole and pouring the water in...now that is mean.

[AtW]

Not sure if it has been posted but here is a link to watwerboarding in practice. It looks grim.

They don't tell you everything - they say what they do, but they don't say the words being said while this is done - these words are far more important from torture point of view then actual action, that's why they erased those tapes.

[daviejones]

Not sure if it has been posted but here is a link to watwerboarding in practice. It looks grim.

[Board Game Geek]

We could argue about this ad infinitum. I think it's suffice to say that you and I aren't going to agree about these things anytime soon...

Fair do's....

[Diver]

Ask no questions hear no lies. they know what you want, not what you want to hear.
ask no questions. when they start to talk, leave the room and ignore them, start again later.
same again.
and again.
and again
and again.
Then don't touch them, just sit and listen. they will tell you everything, and they will tell you the truth.

Extraction 101

Should be used as a matter of course, on Drug dealers, Pedophiles & Terrorists

Just for the hell of it

[RandyW]

Yes.

Torture operates on many levels; physical, psychological, and to varying degrees ; subtle, mild, moderate, extreme, lethal.

I'm not advocating torture for personal sadistic pleasure. I haven't specified what level of torture either. So don't assume anything.

But there is a time and place for everything, in differing degrees. Don't write off torture without understanding the varying levels and applications.

Believe you me, if there was an easier way, then I'd be all for it.

My greatest hope is that one day, there will be a device that sits painlessly on a person's head, linked to a monitor. When asked a question such as "Where were you on the night of the 15th" and the subject answers "At me mum's", the subconcious blows the gaff and shows the suspect stabbing 89 year old Ethel in the Kitchen.

That would be completely painless and not involve torture but allow for rapid conviction and summary justice. Who could argue with that ? Suspects cannot lie anymore and you always get the truth.

But back to reality, yes, torture comes in varying degrees and with different levels of effect.

To be honest, "torture" is such a medieval term, (when it usually was a barbaric and lethal process).

I think the term "cooerced cooperation" is more acceptable, as it covers the gamut of techniques, and doesn't necessarily mean "lethal or barbaric".



I was talking in the case of Terrorist Bob were it is pointless having a trial, since there is undeniable proof from CCTV, the media, and even Terrorist Bob says on TV "Yeah, it was me, he he".

OFC, such a situation would never arise, because terrorists are not stupid. I just wanted to create an extreme case and see at what point people would say "Hmmm...ok..in that case I concede" or whether they were rigid and inflexible in their thinking. Rigid and inflexible will not defeat the fluid dynamics of terrorism.



You seem to labour under the misapprehension that if we were to meet their force with equal or greater force of our own, then they would hate us even more ?

Wake up for pity's sake won't you ?

They hate us and all that we stand for with a burning passion. It is not possible for them to hate us even more, because they are at the apex of their hate. Do you not comprehend the sort of people who we are dealing with here ? Do you live in La-La land ? Does everything look pink in your world through your rose-coloured spectacles ?

I wish I lived in your world. I really do.

But we are not in Kansas anymore, Toto, and our way of life is under threat. It's too late to finger point and find out who started it. The decision is clear. We either protect our life, or we do not. We either meet force with force, or we do not. We either continue to exist, or we do not.

Laws that are inviolate do not support a populace.
They paralyse and strangle it.

We could argue about this ad infinitum. I think it's suffice to say that you and I aren't going to agree about these things anytime soon...

[Board Game Geek]

Are you saying that sometimes it's OK to torture people and other times it isn't?

Yes.

Torture operates on many levels; physical, psychological, and to varying degrees ; subtle, mild, moderate, extreme, lethal.

I'm not advocating torture for personal sadistic pleasure. I haven't specified what level of torture either. So don't assume anything.

But there is a time and place for everything, in differing degrees. Don't write off torture without understanding the varying levels and applications.

Believe you me, if there was an easier way, then I'd be all for it.

My greatest hope is that one day, there will be a device that sits painlessly on a person's head, linked to a monitor. When asked a question such as "Where were you on the night of the 15th" and the subject answers "At me mum's", the subconcious blows the gaff and shows the suspect stabbing 89 year old Ethel in the Kitchen.

That would be completely painless and not involve torture but allow for rapid conviction and summary justice. Who could argue with that ? Suspects cannot lie anymore and you always get the truth.

But back to reality, yes, torture comes in varying degrees and with different levels of effect.

To be honest, "torture" is such a medieval term, (when it usually was a barbaric and lethal process).

I think the term "cooerced cooperation" is more acceptable, as it covers the gamut of techniques, and doesn't necessarily mean "lethal or barbaric".

You're saying that because I don't agree with torturing then executing people without a trial as you advocate that I may as well be working with terrorists?

I was talking in the case of Terrorist Bob were it is pointless having a trial, since there is undeniable proof from CCTV, the media, and even Terrorist Bob says on TV "Yeah, it was me, he he".

OFC, such a situation would never arise, because terrorists are not stupid. I just wanted to create an extreme case and see at what point people would say "Hmmm...ok..in that case I concede" or whether they were rigid and inflexible in their thinking. Rigid and inflexible will not defeat the fluid dynamics of terrorism.

As for there not being a level playing field, I'm glad it isn't level. I wouldn't want to live in a country where the playing field was level - We start behaving like terrorists we become just as bad as they are and they have even more motivation to hate us.

You seem to labour under the misapprehension that if we were to meet their force with equal or greater force of our own, then they would hate us even more ?

Wake up for pity's sake won't you ?

They hate us and all that we stand for with a burning passion. It is not possible for them to hate us even more, because they are at the apex of their hate. Do you not comprehend the sort of people who we are dealing with here ? Do you live in La-La land ? Does everything look pink in your world through your rose-coloured spectacles ?

I wish I lived in your world. I really do.

But we are not in Kansas anymore, Toto, and our way of life is under threat. It's too late to finger point and find out who started it. The decision is clear. We either protect our life, or we do not. We either meet force with force, or we do not. We either continue to exist, or we do not.

Laws that are inviolate do not support a populace.
They paralyse and strangle it.