Reply to: Dodgy is moonlighting as a journo

[richard-af]

So yes, things started to go downhill when kids were left to bring themselves up, left by the middle classes, the working classes, and then by the underclass. Society abandoned it's youth.

its (no apostrophe). Glad to help; no thanks necessary.

[Bagpuss]

The yobs and underclass are not the products of working families where the mothers go to work. The underclass is the product of the state. The underclass are people with nothing and therefore nothing to lose. So saying that the breakdown of society has been caused by women going to work is wrong.

Here we go again, it's the state and nothing else, nobody else is to blame?
The latch-key generation are the yobs, they are the ones with ADHD, behavioural disorders and childhood depression. The underclass are just a subsection of what is happening in wider society.

So yes, things started to go downhill when kids were left to bring themselves up, left by the middle classes, the working classes, and then by the underclass. Society abandoned it's youth.

[richard-af]

I went to Hong Kong recently and you never get any yobs there.

In fact the SCMP had a quarter page on an election poster being ripped. These days a child murder does not warrant that in the UK - unless the parents are media manipulators.

Please be aware that not being seen to support "Team McCann" will lead to your house being burnt to the ground while you sleep.

[ElectricChair]

I went to Hong Kong recently and you never get any yobs there.

In fact the SCMP had a quarter page on an election poster being ripped. These days a child murder does not warrant that in the UK - unless the parents are media manipulators.

[DodgyAgent]

The yobs and underclass are not the products of working families where the mothers go to work. The underclass is the product of the state. The underclass are people with nothing and therefore nothing to lose. So saying that the breakdown of society has been caused by women going to work is wrong.

[wendigo100]

Yes, I agree. I've often thought people should need some kind of licence to have children...

They do. It's called a Marriage Certificate.

[Lucy]

You can't blame the women, however stable loving two parent families seem to yield better members of society than lone parents, kids need a father for discipline, a succession of 'uncles' is no substitute.
People need to look at why they want kids in the first place, and how well positioned they are to have them, it's one of the greatest responsibilities but requires the smallest amount of thought.

Yes, I agree. I've often thought people should need some kind of licence to have children...

[Bagpuss]

I kind of agree with you BP, but I don't know what the alternative is, I know women shouldn't stay with men they don't love, or who are violent toward them.

Some friends of mine put their children in fulltime daycare from a very early age, six months or so, meanwhile they both worked long hours and paid off their mortgage in record time, the children now 9 & 11 are showing what I believe are behavioural problems. The elder child, a boy, was bed wetting until very recently and the girl hits her mother and demands food. Poor parenting I suppose, but I can't help thinking children abandoned at such a young age do miss out on something.

People just seem to want everything these days.

You can't blame the women, however stable loving two parent families seem to yield better members of society than lone parents, kids need a father for discipline, a succession of 'uncles' is no substitute.
People need to look at why they want kids in the first place, and how well positioned they are to have them, it's one of the greatest responsibilities but requires the smallest amount of thought.

[Lucy]

The Breakdown of the family unit is at the core of this IMHO. In the late 70s 80s women began to forge their own careers, they realised as they became more financially independant, that they didn't have to stay with someone they no longer loved (as was common in previous generations). Divorce rates doubled in a couple of decades and children were the casualties. Even in dual income famalies the latch-key generation brought themselves up, dragged in some cases. Communities of neighbours became clusters of individuals. No parental guidance, no community guidance, therein lies the problem. In pursuit of wealth and happiness we have created a monster.

I kind of agree with you BP, but I don't know what the alternative is, I know women shouldn't stay with men they don't love, or who are violent toward them.

Some friends of mine put their children in fulltime daycare from a very early age, six months or so, meanwhile they both worked long hours and paid off their mortgage in record time, the children now 9 & 11 are showing what I believe are behavioural problems. The elder child, a boy, was bed wetting until very recently and the girl hits her mother and demands food. Poor parenting I suppose, but I can't help thinking children abandoned at such a young age do miss out on something.

People just seem to want everything these days.

[sasguru]

Or maybe the explanation is even simpler. The post-industrial culture is reverting back to being like pre-industrial culture. Large cities in the 15th and 16th centuries were even more anarchic and violent than they now seem to be becoming.
Perhaps industrialisation was just a temporary lull in the natural state, where the lowest part of society was given some stake in society for a short period of time.

[Bagpuss]

The Breakdown of the family unit is at the core of this IMHO. In the late 70s 80s women began to forge their own careers, they realised as they became more financially independant, that they didn't have to stay with someone they no longer loved (as was common in previous generations). Divorce rates doubled in a couple of decades and children were the casualties. Even in dual income famalies the latch-key generation brought themselves up, dragged in some cases. Communities of neighbours became clusters of individuals. No parental guidance, no community guidance, therein lies the problem. In pursuit of wealth and happiness we have created a monster.

[sunnysan]

Not sure

I was going to print this on the board myself but without saying who wrote it. You are quite right, I could not have put it better myself. What is interesting is that those who want to disagree with Heffers unpalatable "truth" prefer to dish him and the Telegraph rather than proffer any sort of reasoned counter debate.

I see SAS has gone the Thatcher route without explaining the link about how her policies create and sustain an underclass

Although I feel SH stinging crtiticism of welfare is valid, I feel the mistake he makes is to attribute the underlying social problems that spawned his anti welfare vitriol solely on the consequences of welfare.

To use South Africa and the US as examples, both have low levels of welfare support and high levels of crime including adolescent crime. I am sure there a more examples but I think that these two are enough to illustrate the point that welfare and its social consequences cannot solely be blamed for this kind of behavior.

Conversely the Scandinavian countries have high levels of welfare and relatively low crime especially wanton adolescent crime.

SH also alludes to stricter and more robust policing to resolve the issue. Again I think it is plain to see that if you look around the world, countries with high conviction rates and large prison populations do not have a lower incidence of crime. Stricter policing seems to be a consequence of higher crime but not a solution to it.

The causes of this kind of social maliase are caused by the society we live in. The police are supposed to b the agents of law and order, not the guardians of societies morals and firmer policing is not going to solve that.

I feel the answer lies in looking where people obtain their values from these days. I dont have the answer so I will end this rant with that question.

[sasguru]

What is tired is your idleness/cowardice in countering the points. I hardly think that 9.5% unemployment is a cliche. France is the most beautiful country on this planet (that is a cliche), and if it can sustain the status quo of supporting a huge rural (inefficient) farming based society and a political system that keeps so many people out of work then fine. But as soon as France opens its door to Polish plumbers, an end to the CAP and the free flow of foreign investment it will change. Whether that is a good or bad thing for France is open to debate. But I certainly will not accept it or its people (remember London is its 3rd largest city) are any sort of example that we should follow.

Idleness/cowardice? Well actually I was trying to do some work.

And I concede that France has many problems. But they did something right in saving their manufacturing industry. The US protects its industry too, you know. We are the only fools who blindly followed the theories of the 80s academic free-market theorists.

But here are some random points:

1) Do you really believe the UKs unemployment rate is 5% - what about those on disability benefit, "students" doing waste-of-time courses etc. I suspect the real unemployment rate is much higher.
2) You mentioned the UK's bigger economy - is an economy based on credit sustainable? The jury is still out, but I suspect the next recession will be the most painful since the war, as the debt has to be unwound. That is the weakness of our economy, if protectionism is the French weakness.

As I say in the German thread, I admire the way they have worked themselves out of recession, not by borrowing money, but by creating and improving world class industries. So perhaps Germany is the country we should be comparing to.

[DodgyAgent]

. But I certainly will not accept it or its people (remember London is its 3rd largest city) are any sort of example that we should follow.

Unless we wish to surrender to the Germans that is

[DodgyAgent]

All of the above is are the tired cliches recited ad nauseum from various right-wings rags. They say much the same about Germany. Is Germany yesterday's economy too?

What is tired is your idleness/cowardice in countering the points. I hardly think that 9.5% unemployment is a cliche. France is the most beautiful country on this planet (that is a cliche), and if it can sustain the status quo of supporting a huge rural (inefficient) farming based society and a political system that keeps so many people out of work then fine. But as soon as France opens its door to Polish plumbers, an end to the CAP and the free flow of foreign investment it will change. Whether that is a good or bad thing for France is open to debate. But I certainly will not accept it or its people (remember London is its 3rd largest city) are any sort of example that we should follow.