Reply to: Do you currently,or would you ever own a 4x4

[Numptycorner]

Yeah, I've seen this before. Harsh.

Not sure what's most upsetting, the crash or getting a two tone red and black one. Idiot.

Looks like a cross between the Batmobile and Captain Scarlets car in other words it looks poo

[Chugnut]

Yeah, here he is at the end of his journey..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/6423241.stm

Yeah, I've seen this before. Harsh.

Not sure what's most upsetting, the crash or getting a two tone red and black one. Idiot.

[Numptycorner]

I live in the country and was out for a walk yesterday afternoon with the missus and anklebiter when a black Bugatti Veyron came down the lane towards us. We stepped into a layby to let the guy past. He stopped to say thanks and we had a chat. Turned out one of his customers owned it and lent it to him for a spin. Very generous; the car costs £810,000.

I asked him to boot it as he went and he obliged. The howl from the engine was staggering. Considering 0-60 in 2.5 seconds, he disappeared sharpish.

I can concur though, no room for kiddie seats. Look elsewhere for school run transport.

Yeah, here he is at the end of his journey..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/6423241.stm

[Chugnut]

How many Lamborghini's, Ferraris and even the Bugatti Veyron's do you see on the school run every day?

I see 90% of the school run using very large agricultural 4x4 vehicles.

I live in the country and was out for a walk yesterday afternoon with the missus and anklebiter when a black Bugatti Veyron came down the lane towards us. We stepped into a layby to let the guy past. He stopped to say thanks and we had a chat. Turned out one of his customers owned it and lent it to him for a spin. Very generous; the car costs £810,000.

I asked him to boot it as he went and he obliged. The howl from the engine was staggering. Considering 0-60 in 2.5 seconds, he disappeared sharpish.

I can concur though, no room for kiddie seats. Look elsewhere for school run transport.

[gingerjedi]

That all depends on your perspective. If you are anti 4x4, you can quote all kinds of figures, same as pro 4x4.

All of my quotes came from independent sources that are neither anti nor pro 4x4, I Challenge you to come up with evidence from respected bodies that supports your claim that 4x4's (and just to be clear I mean vehicles that are designed for off road use) are every bit as safe as road cars (again to be clear I mean cars that are designed to be used on roads) for use in an urban environment.

[King Cnvt]

Well, they probably are. So in fact are BMW 7 series, Lamborghini's, Ferraris and even the Bugatti Veyron. What's the point?

How many Lamborghini's, Ferraris and even the Bugatti Veyron's do you see on the school run every day?

I see 90% of the school run using very large agricultural 4x4 vehicles.

[angusglover]

Rubbish, it’s A Focus with a higher roof line and the S-max is probably a Mondeo with a higher roof line? These are based on road cars with normal ground clearance they're not the same thing and they do not compare to a Range Rover and you now it.

At the end of the day arguing the point just to justify you owning one doesn't make them safe as the evidence from respected bodies that I provided earlier tells a different story.

That all depends on your perspective. If you are anti 4x4, you can quote all kinds of figures, same as pro 4x4. For example:

UK insurance industry figures from Churchill show that urban 4x4s are involved in 25% more accidents than saloon cars and do far more damage.[2] Admiral Insurance also recently released figures showing that 4x4 drivers are 27% more likely to be at fault in the event of an accident.[3]

This could be argued that they are justifying higher insurance premiums

The RAC Foundation says, "You could blame some of the higher accident rate for 4x4s on size. Drivers who are new to these cars might not realise how wide they are. There is also psychology involved - if you feel more secure inside a big 4x4, you might drive with less care than you should."[2]

You "could blame" - hardly conclusive.
"might not realise" - Again, subjective
"You might drive with less care" - Hardly a good arguement.

The European New Car Assessment Programme (Euro-NCAP) carries out crash tests on cars available in Europe. Of the top 10 cars tested since 1998, none is a 4x4, and only three off-roaders make it into the the top 20 (see below).

I agree, this may not look good but could be argued that a lot of 4x4's actually are not available in Europe and are imported from Japan, so are they included in the test?


Big 4x4s are right at the bottom of the class when it comes to pedestrian safety, getting an average Euro-NCAP crash test score of just 4 out of 36, compared with 10 and 13 for large and small family cars, respectively.

Again, could be argued that the 4x4 is being unfairly jsutified as some of the newer 4x4s actually look like big road cars.

In October 2005, the British Medical Journal called for health warnings on 4x4s because of the dangers they pose for pedestrians,[10] and when new test results were released in November 2005, the only car with a zero rating for pedestrian safety was a 4x4 - the Jeep Cherokee.[11]

Again, see point above. The Subaru is a 4x4 with permanent 4 wheel drive, not a clear distinction .

The UK Transport Research Laboratory released its annual report of deaths on Britain's roads in March 2005, providing hard evidence that the growth in popularity of big 4x4s is causing problems for road safety - 2004 saw the highest number of road deaths in seven years, reversing a long-term decline.[1]

According to the other government figures, road deaths are actually down as a result of speed cameras. Something that is equally clear from other sources of stats. They also provided "hard evidence", which the government ignored.

The TRL blames the increasing mismatch between the size of vehicles on the road for a 1% rise in people killed in accidents in 2004. Passengers in 'super minis' were 12 times more likely to be killed than people in a 4x4 when these vehicles collided. The principal factor is the extra weight of the larger car, as well as extra height, which can override the bumpers and side impact protection on the smaller vehicle.

So, the point above says to me "get a 4x4".



The Institute of Advanced Motorists in the UK has warned drivers of urban 4x4s to be more careful behind the wheel.[4]

Ok, we will be more careful. This does not take into account driving standards, or any other criteria. Just that is it s 4x4???

Also in the UK, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents has described 4x4s as "totally unsuitable for the school run."

Well, they probably are. So in fact are BMW 7 series, Lamborghini's, Ferraris and even the Bugatti Veyron. What's the point?

[King Cnvt]

Clearly we need more government legislation and controls. Probably an EDS designed and Indian programmer written national database.

HTH

[gingerjedi]

So are we referring to USV's or just 4x4's? Or how about the new Ford C_Max? It is just as large as some 4x4's...

And if pedestrians were to stay off the fookin road, less would get hurt....

Rubbish, it’s A Focus with a higher roof line and the S-max is probably a Mondeo with a higher roof line? These are based on road cars with normal ground clearance they're not the same thing and they do not compare to a Range Rover and you now it.

At the end of the day arguing the point just to justify you owning one doesn't make them safe as the evidence from respected bodies that I provided earlier tells a different story.

[angusglover]

Physics dictate that a large top heavy vehicle needs more effort to move, more effort to stop and they are inherently less stable, that’s why large lorries have restrictions.

The height advantage is great on country roads where being able to see over hedgerows is handy but not outside schools or in any urban environment for that matter.

And your remark about intimidating other road user proves my point entirely.

So are we referring to USV's or just 4x4's? Or how about the new Ford C_Max? It is just as large as some 4x4's...

And if pedestrians were to stay off the fookin road, less would get hurt....

[milanbenes]

sas,

and a BMW 7 or such vehicle is not ?

Milan.

[sasguru]

4x4 drivers in the City are selfish w ankers.
End of discussion

[BrilloPad]

If they want to make cars safe then limit them to whatever the speed limit is, as Oscar Goldman once said...we have the technology

Of course that is fine until you need speed to get you out of a tight spot. Is there a way of allowing for this?

And I am no fan of cars - I get sick of 4x4's trying to run down my girlfriend and children while walking to school. We are almost the furthest from school - why do all these people feel the need to take a car on a 400 yard journey when there is no parking near the school? Any way of stopping them?

[milanbenes]

would you please kindly stop twisting my words to support your argument,

I did not say...

'And your remark about intimidating other road user proves my point entirely.',


I said, the presence of a 4x4 has been known to discourage oncoming motorists from attempting to perform riskier manouvres which they may have been more confident to attempt at the risk of everybody should the oncoming vehicle be smaller

Milan.

[gingerjedi]

'I beg to differ, they all stop, start and handle better on roads than the equivalent off roaders ',


I am sorry Jedi, no matter how great a Jedi Knight you may be, such a unsupported sweeping generalisations carries now weight in a discussion like this.

Furthermore, the high benefit is not about superiority it's about being able to plan ahead and anticipate through being able to see what the car infront of the car infront of you is doing.

Superiority may be a benefit too, I am sure the 4x4 owners here will confirm how oncoming motorists are less inclined to attempt more risky manouvres when they see you coing down the road.

All the best,

Milan.

Physics dictate that a large top heavy vehicle needs more effort to move, more effort to stop and they are inherently less stable, that’s why large lorries have restrictions.

The height advantage is great on country roads where being able to see over hedgerows is handy but not outside schools or in any urban environment for that matter.

And your remark about intimidating other road user proves my point entirely.