Reply to: Housing Shortage

[Rantor]

I have a spare room, need a big pole and big hands!

Nearly choked on my morning coffee - good to see someone raising the bar a bit!

[GreenerGrass]

http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?...mentid=5025887

More downright lies from Alan Johnson
Speaking on BBC1's Question Time, he said: "The problem with that is that's the kind of language of the BNP, and it's grist to the mill of the BNP, particularly as there is no evidence that there's any problem in social housing caused by immigration, none whatsoever."

Anyone who knows anything about the areas of east London mentioned will be laughing at how he can peddle this crap. The influx of Africans in particular over the last 5 years has exceeded any other area in the UK in terms of numbers. They know they can leapfrog the queue in social housing by having lots of children, they are even more fertile than British chav poor welfare dependents.

Why does Alan Johnson think the BNP is getting votes in the area? Does he think people are just stupid and feel like voting for neo-Nazis? Does he think they imagine the thousands of African families that have moved into their streets and taken over their schools?
I have no problem with people exposing the BNP, but Johnson's claims and denial are shocking, you have to wonder whether he has ever even visited these areas or even passed through Barking on a train, let alone seen schools that now have English as a second language.
I didn't see Question Time so have no idea whether anyone challenged his views? It is Johnson that should be the minister getting slammed for his lies and propaganda, he is as bad as Ken Livingstone for peddling this garbage.

[Damp Cave]

I have a spare room, need a big pole and big hands!

[Ardesco]

Can we get back on-topic? We're meant to be discussing immigration and international disease epidemiology here.

Disease comes and goes, always has done and always will. Even if we don't have immigrants bringing it into the country we will have students on gap years going out of the country getting it and bringing it back. I'm not going to get up tight about disease.

As for the AIDS thing, if you take sensible precautions and don't sleep around with half the world without using protection you are extremely unlikly to get it anyway no matter how large a percentage of the population is infected.

[Old Greg]

If we all weren't so hard up to buy our own houses there would be no house price increases. We now judge each other based on whether we are home owners or renters - well at least from my wife's view anyway. I've never owned, and that makes me a pauper in her eyes. Until you look at the bank accounts...I'm in six figures and she's in double digits with an asset that has been on the market for six months with not even a wiff of an offer.

Can we get back on-topic? We're meant to be discussing immigration and international disease epidemiology here.

[lilelvis2000]

How can owning a buy to let possibly add to a housing shortage? Does a buy to let house magicaly disappear when a BTLer buys it?

Nope! It reamains in the housing stock, someone rents it and then lives in it. That someone is not living on the street in exactly the same way that they would have done if they bought their own house.

The idea that BTL adds to the housing shortage is complete and utter b0llocks. (I agree that it adds to house price increases)

tim

If we all weren't so hard up to buy our own houses there would be no house price increases. We now judge each other based on whether we are home owners or renters - well at least from my wife's view anyway. I've never owned, and that makes me a pauper in her eyes. Until you look at the bank accounts...I'm in six figures and she's in double digits with an asset that has been on the market for six months with not even a wiff of an offer.

[Old Greg]

That's in Wales though, innit?

I meant a human to human transferred flu epidemic of avain flu origin.

[Churchill]

As for the untreatable TB, I won't start worrying yet. I reckon the avain flu will be more of a problem - much more easily spread.

That's in Wales though, innit?

[Old Greg]

He had some valid points. Treatment of imported AIDS (at the current rate) is going to bancrupt the NHS. Why is it our duty to treat these people?

Moreover, as Zeitghost has mentioned untreatable strains of (once thought) eradicated diseases are apearing in the third world and are being imported into the UK. Those defending this policy are mugs.

Bankrupt the NHS? Not sure about that, but in total HIV is a significant and growing cost. I'd deal with it by sticking two fingers up to the pharmaceutical companies and declare a health emergency (I forget the actual phrase) and then manufacture the drugs at a fraction of the cost - it's what the US government threatened Bayer with during the 2001 Anthrax attackes. Problem solved and we can get back to treating good-old fashioned British diseases casued by smoking and obesity. Why is it our duty to treat them? The short answer is that I'm not sure we do have a duty but we take it on as the price of a civilised society, not to leave people to die untreated in this country or to deport them to where they'll die. Others will see it as a price not worth paying, and I'm happy to debate it with reasonable seeming people like you, who don't have an unhealthy obsession with gay penguins. We seem to find enough taxpayers' money for was when we need them - we could even cut down on that and reinvest the money in the NHS. Who knows - if we stop invading their countries we might even remove some of the waves of refugees that end up here and who are seen as such a drain on society.

As for the untreatable TB, I won't start worrying yet. I reckon the avain flu will be more of a problem - much more easily spread.

[Bagpuss]

He had some valid points. Treatment of imported AIDS (at the current rate) is going to bancrupt the NHS. Why is it our duty to treat these people?

Moreover, as Zeitghost has mentioned untreatable strains of (once thought) eradicated diseases are apearing in the third world and are being imported into the UK. Those defending this policy are mugs.

[Old Greg]

I'm afraid for some there is a lot to consider in my posts, it is not possible to cover all possibilities of offending without writing a book, and then there will always be the dull witted who will believe their mind reading abilities mean they know what you 'really' mean. Perhaps I should spoon feed people little snippets, as the red haze descends as soon as the mind reading takes over. Yours was classic binary thinking, I trust you are not so primitive and were joking. I see no reason to stay around here, nothing to see here, keep moving, move on now.

Does that mean we've seen the f*cker off?

[Old Greg]

Let me explain. 90% is my estimate of immigrants who do not pay their way, it is based on the following information taken from Andrew Brownes assessment. Quote: Immigrants overall do pay more in tax than they receive in benefits and consume in public services, but only because immigrants from North America, Japan and the EU pay so much more than their fair share. Immigrants from the Third World—who make up the entire net immigration to the UK—are on average less well educated, suffer higher unemployment, claim more of most forms of benefits, make more demands on public services such as schools and hospitals, and almost certainly do not pay their way on average. There are no figures for the UK, but official studies in the US show that the average adult Mexican immigrant will consume throughout their life time $55,200 more in services than they contribute in taxes.

(This assessment was made in 2001 before the eastern EUs were included in the EU statement above).

Ah - Anthony Browne, not Andrew - that's why I was struggling to find it. Ok - it's a long book and I ain't going to read it all. I've looked a the first couple of pages and then found the relevant partthat you quote. In general, I'm a little suspicious - he slants arguments here and there, there are no footnotes as you might expect - hard to check up on the 'official studies', but he's a respectable journalist so let's give him the benefit of the doubt on the validity of the statistics. So, having looked at this, I 'd like to know:
How did you come up with 90% - you say you based it on the assessment you quote, but how did you arrive at the figure?
What do you mean by immigrant? (resident non-British citizen or something else?)
What do you mean by 'pay their way'?

[Causus Deli]

well if you are going to generalise and apply your comments to all members of an ethnic group, when patently your comments do not apply to every member then either you are lazy, you are too stupid (I will not call you thick), or you are a racist. I do not understand why (being a little thick myself) so perhaps you can explain.

I'm afraid for some there is a lot to consider in my posts, it is not possible to cover all possibilities of offending without writing a book, and then there will always be the dull witted who will believe their mind reading abilities mean they know what you 'really' mean. Perhaps I should spoon feed people little snippets, as the red haze descends as soon as the mind reading takes over. Yours was classic binary thinking, I trust you are not so primitive and were joking. I see no reason to stay around here, nothing to see here, keep moving, move on now.

[DodgyAgent]

All I can say is that when I were a lad at Primary school, we had a mix of pupils from council houses (me) children of tradesmen and children of professionals, all received the same education.
Some went on to Uni, some followed in their father’s footsteps & some achieved nothing (relative)
Those from poor backgrounds were helped with bursaries to get into Uni if they were academic enough & some from wealthier backgrounds ended up as druggies

Effectively you were whatever you made of yourself. I personally encountered no barriers coming from a poor background which is why I say we do live in a meritocracy

Would it have been an easier ride if I had money? - not sure but I think I wouldn't have been so motivated to succeed if I could rely on inheriting wealth.

fair enough. In fact I may go further and suggest that some people who have a leg up dont need to fight so hard as others who have few advantages.

[Troll]

"Should" is the key word. Your point makes an assumption that all schools provide basic services which they do not. Those that do, do so to differering standards. So although you are right to say that we live in a meritocracy some people have more merit than others which enables them to enjoy advantages over other people.

Let me ask you. If a former project manager calls you up to do a job without seeing anyone else then that is hardly making a decision on the merits of the strengths of others is it?

All I can say is that when I were a lad at Primary school, we had a mix of pupils from council houses (me) children of tradesmen and children of professionals, all received the same education.
Some went on to Uni, some followed in their father’s footsteps & some achieved nothing (relative)
Those from poor backgrounds were helped with bursaries to get into Uni if they were academic enough & some from wealthier backgrounds ended up as druggies

Effectively you were whatever you made of yourself. I personally encountered no barriers coming from a poor background which is why I say we do live in a meritocracy

Would it have been an easier ride if I had money? - not sure but I think I wouldn't have been so motivated to succeed if I could rely on inheriting wealth.