Reply to: Scotland's indepencence

[scooterscot]

You are reverting to the stereotype Scot in treating Parliament as English and therefore not yours from where I sit the Parliment has a distinct tartan hue

sometimes you have to fight but agree that in this case there was no cause for war except the vanity of a Scottish Prime Minister

What all you Scots fail to realise is that deep down the English don’t give a tulip if you go or stay. Like the whiney little child always threatening to leave home – one day you will, and both parties will be the better for it. Just don’t think you can keep using the threat as some kind of stick to beat England with because as I’ve said we really, really don’t care that much.

It does open the possibilities of further fragmentation of the UK, no doubt Cornwall will start agitating and it would be a delicious irony if the Shetlands went and took all the oil with them. Perhaps we would then fracture into city states and the only winner would be London

I'm talking about government, not Parliament. I agree from where you sit the hue blue.

But you Sir I think are mistaking a connection of an MP's birthplace and the policies of their party as one, I don't distinguish, my vote is cast on they're actions and nothing more.

This is not about fragmentation of the UK, this is the cause and effect of the actions of a group whose lack of foresight has led to the deaths of many many people, at home and abroad.

[wendigo100]

The question of why Scottish MPs in Westminster should be allowed to vote on purely English matters, when English MPs (and for that matter Scottish MPs) can not vote on Scottish matters, is the West Lothain question, after the seat of Tam Dalyell who famously posed it.

the Midlothian question is, Why do Hearts bother?

Yes, sorry, slip of the tongue. It's a good job I didn't mention the East Lothian question! (shudders)

[Troll]

All this talk of breaking up they cannot do it alone. For me it's not whether we can or cannot I’d prefer the risks of independence to the associations of the current government, personally. It's not real; it’s more about giving the government a bloody nose. They joined in a war that was not of our own making and personally I don't think Scotland should be a part of that, it's not in my interest, not in my name, it can't be allowed!

Folks voting SNP might be viewed as nationalist proud gits, the truth I believe it was a way of showing that those in this small land don’t want involviment in such affairs abroad but neither do we want the nationalist in control. The whole of the UK needs nationalist pride restored and I don't see one party here today the represents my interest at heart which can achieve that, our core beliefs.

I'd compare the current state of affairs to that of a lost child in the supermarket looking fir their mother, what a mess. Anyone got a loudspeaker?

You are reverting to the stereotype Scot in treating Parliament as English and therefore not yours

about giving the government a bloody nose. They joined in a war that was not of our own making and personally I don't think Scotland should be a part of that, it's not in my interest, not in my name,

from where I sit the Parliment has a distinct tartan hue

those in this small land don’t want involvement in such affairs abroad

sometimes you have to fight but agree that in this case there was no cause for war except the vanity of a Scottish Prime Minister

What all you Scots fail to realise is that deep down the English don’t give a tulip if you go or stay. Like the whiney little child always threatening to leave home – one day you will, and both parties will be the better for it. Just don’t think you can keep using the threat as some kind of stick to beat England with because as I’ve said we really, really don’t care that much.

It does open the possibilities of further fragmentation of the UK, no doubt Cornwall will start agitating and it would be a delicious irony if the Shetlands went and took all the oil with them. Perhaps we would then fracture into city states and the only winner would be London

[Euro-commuter]

1. The Midlothian question goes away.

The question of why Scottish MPs in Westminster should be allowed to vote on purely English matters, when English MPs (and for that matter Scottish MPs) can not vote on Scottish matters, is the West Lothain question, after the seat of Tam Dalyell who famously posed it.

the Midlothian question is, Why do Hearts bother?

[Euro-commuter]

I personlay do not want Scotland to govern itself as that requires a break up of the Union and that is not something I want to see. I believe Britain is stronger than each of its individual countries.

While we are on these questions.
Why do the Scots not believe that they already do govern themselves through the current system?
Why do the Scots insist that Westminster is too far away to understand the needs of Scotland, but Brussels isn't?
Why do the Scots believe that Scotland will be better represented as part of the EU than it is in Britain?

Or could it be that the Scots are racist against the English?

All good questions, these.

[scooterscot]

All this talk of breaking up they cannot do it alone. For me it's not whether we can or cannot I’d prefer the risks of independence to the associations of the current government, personally. It's not real; it’s more about giving the government a bloody nose. They joined in a war that was not of our own making and personally I don't think Scotland should be a part of that, it's not in my interest, not in my name, it can't be allowed!

Folks voting SNP might be viewed as nationalist proud gits, the truth I believe it was a way of showing that those in this small land don’t want involviment in such affairs abroad but neither do we want the nationalist in control. The whole of the UK needs nationalist pride restored and I don't see one party here today the represents my interest at heart which can achieve that, our core beliefs.

I'd compare the current state of affairs to that of a lost child in the supermarket looking fir their mother, what a mess. Anyone got a loudspeaker?

[sasguru]

It would be an interesting experiment. But can Scotland get rid of it's (even more than England) bloated public sector?

[Xenophon]

I personlay do not want Scotland to govern itself as that requires a break up of the Union and that is not something I want to see. I believe Britain is stronger than each of its individual countries.

While we are on these questions.
Why do the Scots not believe that they already do govern themselves through the current system?
Why do the Scots insist that Westminster is too far away to understand the needs of Scotland, but Brussels isn't?
Why do the Scots believe that Scotland will be better represented as part of the EU than it is in Britain?

Or could it be that the Scots are racist against the English?

The last one?

[The Lone Gunman]

Serious question: why is it that English contributors to this debate all want to prevent Scotland governing itself; except for some who insist that they are desperate to be rid of us?

Why does nobody say, "how the Scots are governed is their own biusiness, if they want it to be"?

I personlay do not want Scotland to govern itself as that requires a break up of the Union and that is not something I want to see. I believe Britain is stronger than each of its individual countries.

While we are on these questions.
Why do the Scots not believe that they already do govern themselves through the current system?
Why do the Scots insist that Westminster is too far away to understand the needs of Scotland, but Brussels isn't?
Why do the Scots believe that Scotland will be better represented as part of the EU than it is in Britain?

Or could it be that the Scots are racist against the English?

[wendigo100]

In other words - no matter who you vote for - The Government always gets in.

I think he is advocating the opposite actually Alf.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Actually I'm just in the argument for a laugh. I don't care either way. I don't believe in government for anyone at all. Government is an attempt at legitimisation of the outcome of the centralisation inherent to the fuedal system. Which country government you have is, after all, the result of the machinations between various bands of heavily armed thugs running protection rackets. It still goes on today with government institutions run by bureaucrats who are responsible to no one and often ill-treat the citizenship. This ill treatment, or the perception of it, leads groups to think they'll be happier doing the government job themselves. Big mistake, you'll still have your government.

In other words - no matter who you vote for - The Government always gets in.

[Rantor]

Serious question: why is it that English contributors to this debate all want to prevent Scotland governing itself; except for some who insist that they are desperate to be rid of us?

Why does nobody say, "how the Scots are governed is their own biusiness, if they want it to be"?

While a lot of stuff posted on here does not exactly reflect public opinion 100%, it does seem to reflect emerging opinion. If Scotland chooses opt out the union then so be it but the situation is current situation is more complex than simply choosing the preferred method of government and current actions will have consequences.

Firstly, I am far from convinced that SNP resurgence is not more of an anti-Blair protest (surely something that many on here would concur with?) and may not translate into a firm desire for independence - I just don't see real enthusiasm for it in friends and family back up the road. There is also a huge movement towards an newly discovered isolationist stance following Iraq ("honest mate, nothing to do with me") that might be understandable to some extent but is unsustainable - fortunately it also seems to be challenged more and more.

While all this breaking-the-mould, internal debate and soul-searching is going on in Scotland there are emerging consequences. The most immediate is that the English are forming a new view on the union that will change the terms of our relationship whatever the outcome of the Alex Salmonds career. No-one is going to stop Scotland going its own way, if that is what they want, but the current status quo is going to change as our neighbours are becoming a wee bit less willing to persuade us to stay.

[scooterscot]

[QUOTE=threaded] I don't believe in government for anyone at all. Government is an attempt at legitimisation of the outcome of the centralisation inherent to the fuedal system. [QUOTE]

Have you ever thought about a job in politics?

[threaded]

Serious question: why is it that English contributors to this debate all want to prevent Scotland governing itself; except for some who insist that they are desperate to be rid of us?

Why does nobody say, "how the Scots are governed is their own biusiness, if they want it to be"?

Actually I'm just in the argument for a laugh. I don't care either way. I don't believe in government for anyone at all. Government is an attempt at legitimisation of the outcome of the centralisation inherent to the fuedal system. Which country government you have is, after all, the result of the machinations between various bands of heavily armed thugs running protection rackets. It still goes on today with government institutions run by bureaucrats who are responsible to no one and often ill-treat the citizenship. This ill treatment, or the perception of it, leads groups to think they'll be happier doing the government job themselves. Big mistake, you'll still have your government.

[wendigo100]

Serious question: why is it that English contributors to this debate all want to prevent Scotland governing itself; except for some who insist that they are desperate to be rid of us?

Why does nobody say, "how the Scots are governed is their own biusiness, if they want it to be"?

Don't make the mistake of thinking "how the Scots are governed is their own business", because while Scotland is part of the UK, it is very much the business of the English as well. The Scots hold the balance of power in the UK parliament.

I'm in favour because independence for Scotland would take Labour's majority in the UK with it. Including and especially Gordon Brown.

There is also:

1. The Midlothian question goes away.

2. If Scotland joined the EU as a separate nation, like ROI, they would do better on their own, what with all the grants they'd get. And there is little reason for the EU not to accept them.

3. Independence might motivate Scots to improve their productivity.