Reply to: Suggestions for elGordo’s last budget speech

[DodgyAgent]

This really is one of your favourite topics DA.!The first three paragraphs are a not totally unreasonable description of the client socialist state(let) but you lose me on the fourth. I believe this situation evolved out of legitimate responses to deindustrialisation, aimed at fighting or ameliorating the impact of rapid changes to established social and economic structures (jobs.) At some point these mechanisms have become self-serving to a large extent. If you think it is bad in some parts of britain you should see wallonia!

One of the two cities you mentioned is my home town and the situations there is not anywhere near as clear cut as you have alluded to here, and previously on this board. What seems to have evolved is a form of localised economic apartheid with huge disparities in incomes and pretty much every measure of prosperity or deprivation. The basis of this tends to be very localised but extreme and I agree that the immediate causes of this is, at least in part, related to the points you have raised.

You obviously hate the labourite left at a pretty basic level (my gripe with them is more to do with an unquenchable desire to expand the power of the state in all areas) but are they more 'evil' than the ultra-libertarian solution that denies state aid or restricts it to forced deportation to run down bulgarian steel towns?

I am not going to pretend to understand the complexities of a city like Glasgow, all I try to do is transfer what I believe is my understanding of human nature to solving social problems. I would not disagree with your points, though they are more probably to do with outcomes rather thann causes. The problem is that politicians will not even debate these issues lest they be accused of being uncaring.

As far as my argument with regards to deporting the great unwashed is concerned that is more a joke than anything else. There is a serious side to it though which is that we need to help these people out of welfare dependency not by giving them more handouts but by making them work and giving them training using a carrot and stick approach.

To begin with everyone must work (with the exception of the terminally sick) and by work I include childcare as work. If someone works no matter what that work is the feeling of confidence and achievement that it gives an indidividual is the basis from which a human being can move on. They cannot go anywhere from being on welfare (or any type of handout for that matter) handouts.

I have never understood why the first cure for anything wrong with someone is to give them a sick note (unless for a couple of days to get over flu) and say stop working. If someone bu***** their back from lifting then retrain them to work in a call centre or something do not stop them working.

The problem with a great number of worthy initiatives (such as welfare) is that they have a habit of turning into industries of their own, with their own vested interests and power going to people who run them (golf club committees are another example of how power corrupts something that sets out with good intentions only to turn into a power base for individuals).

I am sure we have seen examples of such empire building within companies that we have worked for. Where a small team is set up to deal with a certain problem (maybe for a bit of desktop support for example) and then turns into a behemoth that is suddenly challenging to deliver all the IT.

I understand that maybe cities like Glasgow and perhaps Belfast have entrenched insoluble problems, but the least that we can do is to give the next generation a chance by putting them through the very best education system (aka Fettes, Gordonstoun), rather than some poorly run state school with no sporting facilities. That way then at least there is a chance that future generations will aspire to more than fighting, crime and drugs, and then maybe show the Poles (who have hardly come from a priviliged life themselves... they just have little welfare- there is a lesson there) a thing or two about work ethic, customer service and entrepreneurship.

[Rantor]

well if you want to know where your taxes go in unemployment hotspots they go to sending poor kids to school, schools that have high numbers of pupils to teacher ratios , schools that have no sport, schools that are underachieving with low levels of morale amongst teachers and schools that are essentially run according to diktats from central government.

The output from these schools are poorly educated teenagers with low levels of confidence no aspirations and total unsuitability for employment. They are taught to work the benefits system and naturally become resentful of the society that they live in. They then turn to drink, drugs and crime or if they are women they can also get pregnant in order to obtain housing and extra benefits.

A whole industry employing thousands of people to administer welfare, and patch up the social problems that this system creates subsequently flourishes.

The front end of this evil system consists of the powerful socialists who manipulate the wealth creators by making them feel that these social problems are because they do not give enough tax. with weasel words and cliches such as "gap between rich and poor" and "fair" the middle classes are made to feel guilty enough to ignore the real causes of depravation, and in many cases where their guilt is strong enough to even claim to be socialists themselves.

What is the purpose behind our acceptance of this terrible system of welfare? why all those who depend upon it for either benefits or a job vote labour!

So when immigrants come in to cities such as Glasgow or Newcastle, the labour politicians try to spin it as if it is they that are doing their bit to help local employers find the skilled workers they need. They neatly ignore the social problems that keeps what should be a large pool of available workers on welfare. Situations that they themselves have created in order gain and sustain power and influence for themselves.

funny that.

This really is one of your favourite topics DA.!The first three paragraphs are a not totally unreasonable description of the client socialist state(let) but you lose me on the fourth. I believe this situation evolved out of legitimate responses to deindustrialisation, aimed at fighting or ameliorating the impact of rapid changes to established social and economic structures (jobs.) At some point these mechanisms have become self-serving to a large extent. If you think it is bad in some parts of britain you should see wallonia!

One of the two cities you mentioned is my home town and the situations there is not anywhere near as clear cut as you have alluded to here, and previously on this board. What seems to have evolved is a form of localised economic apartheid with huge disparities in incomes and pretty much every measure of prosperity or deprivation. The basis of this tends to be very localised but extreme and I agree that the immediate causes of this is, at least in part, related to the points you have raised.

You obviously hate the labourite left at a pretty basic level (my gripe with them is more to do with an unquenchable desire to expand the power of the state in all areas) but are they more 'evil' than the ultra-libertarian solution that denies state aid or restricts it to forced deportation to run down bulgarian steel towns?

[DodgyAgent]

well put DA

It is my way of justifying spending a great deal of effort to avoid paying as much tax as I can

[BoredBloke]

well put DA

[threaded]

That's been tried before, Dodgy... it didn't work then either...

Just realised that's not altogether true, there were disincentives to expanding existing factories so that companies were forced to build new facilities in other areas.

i.e. Rover way in Cardiff... great success that.

Spot on that! One of my spin offs was the manufacture of these tiny video cameras. They started selling well so wanted to expand the factory, owned the land and all that, absolutely no problem, apart that is from the local council planning office, who for reasons I never could fathom, wanted the extension built at a very strange angle.

Anyways, such machinations interfered with my enjoyment of the firm so I thought 'sod it' and now the cameras are made in China.

[DodgyAgent]

Sounds like rampant stalinist statism to me - a whiff of collectivising the don cossacks there!

Your other point though does raise the interesting point about immigration highlighting welfare dependency as a way of life in some places. Loads of poles have migrated to glasgow for example and they are filling a demand that can't be satisfied by the local population despite endemic unemployment in some areas. While there are other factors (plain social f***edupness, crushed expectations, lack of incentives for example) it does show up the "no work" argument to be bollox.

well if you want to know where your taxes go in unemployment hotspots they go to sending poor kids to school, schools that have high numbers of pupils to teacher ratios , schools that have no sport, schools that are underachieving with low levels of morale amongst teachers and schools that are essentially run according to diktats from central government.

The output from these schools are poorly educated teenagers with low levels of confidence no aspirations and total unsuitability for employment. They are taught to work the benefits system and naturally become resentful of the society that they live in. They then turn to drink, drugs and crime or if they are women they can also get pregnant in order to obtain housing and extra benefits.

A whole industry employing thousands of people to administer welfare, and patch up the social problems that this system creates subsequently flourishes.

The front end of this evil system consists of the powerful socialists who manipulate the wealth creators by making them feel that these social problems are because they do not give enough tax. with weasel words and cliches such as "gap between rich and poor" and "fair" the middle classes are made to feel guilty enough to ignore the real causes of depravation, and in many cases where their guilt is strong enough to even claim to be socialists themselves.

What is the purpose behind our acceptance of this terrible system of welfare? why all those who depend upon it for either benefits or a job vote labour!

So when immigrants come in to cities such as Glasgow or Newcastle, the labour politicians try to spin it as if it is they that are doing their bit to help local employers find the skilled workers they need. They neatly ignore the social problems that keeps what should be a large pool of available workers on welfare. Situations that they themselves have created in order gain and sustain power and influence for themselves.

funny that.

[Rantor]

I still believe that welfare dependents should be moved to the low cost parts of eastern europe (including east germany) where it costs much less to house them and free up housing for people who want to work in areas where there is work.

Sounds like rampant stalinist statism to me - a whiff of collectivising the don cossacks there!

Your other point though does raise the interesting point about immigration highlighting welfare dependency as a way of life in some places. Loads of poles have migrated to glasgow for example and they are filling a demand that can't be satisfied by the local population despite endemic unemployment in some areas. While there are other factors (plain social f***edupness, crushed expectations, lack of incentives for example) it does show up the "no work" argument to be bollox.

[wonderwaif]

I still believe that welfare dependents should be moved to the low cost parts of eastern europe (including east germany) where it costs much less to house them and free up housing for people who want to work in areas where there is work.

Edited on the grounds of good taste, (a first, I know)

[DodgyAgent]

Few people in or out of government seem to grasp this: it's a market in operation.

Young first-time buyers can not afford houses, not because house prices are too high, or because they don't have enough money, but because there are not enough houses. Someone has to be at the bottom of the pile and not get a house. No monetary or taxation adjustment will fix this.

The worst of all things that might be done about this is to have a Key Worker house purchase scheme:
1. it lifts some on to the housing ladder simply by booting others off.
2. worse, it creates a sort of job apartheid by lifting the government's workers on while booting off those outside the patronage circle.
3. by effectively removing some houses from the market, it raises the price for others
4. it locks government workers with these houses into the patronage system.
5. it lets government, as employer, off the hook for simply not paying enough and taking the consequences.

In other words, it is an exercise in economics without price.

Really the only solution is to build more houses or create incentives for businesses to locate elsewhere. The other thing is why on earth are we spending such a fortune on keeping such large numbers of the population out of work and on welfare whilst at the same time bringing in large numbers of immigrants. Not only is this a ridiculous waste of money but it also has the knock on effect of making housing much more expenseive. I still believe that welfare dependents should be moved to the low cost parts of eastern europe (including east germany) where it costs much less to house them and free up housing for people who want to work in areas where there is work.

[wendigo100]

Hospital waiting lists down? Here's a sample of how Labour's targets are achieved:

* Patients are asked when they are going on holiday, then offered operations during that time, meaning that the patient cancels

* Patients are not put on a waiting list for an operation until they have got over all other ailments, such as hypertension, which could take several months.

* Many GPs have stopped making appointment for more than 48 hours in the future, so they can say they now see everyone within 48 hours.

* The quickest operations are given priority to get the numbers up - more difficult operations like cancer treatments are most likely to be cancelled.

* Waiting times on trolleys are reduced by removing wheels on the trolleys, reclassifying them as beds.

* Waiting times to be put in a ward are reduced by reclassifying corridors as wards.

* Waiting times to be seen at in-patients or A&E are reduced by sending someone around to meet and greet everyone who comes through the door - which is classified as having "seen" the patient.

All so that Tony Blair can stand up in parliament and say "waiting times are now lower than under any other government".

[EqualOpportunities]

ha ha - when did you change your signature? Think you're a big boy now that your probation is over dont ya?

Earlier on - just to see if anyone'd notice...

[SallyAnne]

ha ha - when did you change your signature? Think you're a big boy now that your probation is over dont ya?

[SallyAnne]

"Of course the use of consultancies has rocketted under NL - tey have no other alternative! What else are they supposed to use? There's no in house skills anymore!!"

So ten years in is not long enough to redress this then? Utter rubbish.

Redress it how? By forming another IT Agency? You lot would just be bitching and moaning about the cost of over paid civil servants, getting trained in the job whilst snuggling into their over inflated pension plans then!!

Basically, yous hate NL the same way a lot of blinkered people hate the tories. Yous are finding the negative in every little thing.

There have been some genuine points made in this thread (and others) abotu things which Labour have genuinely gotten wrong, but going on about stuff like IT systems, when both sides are equally bad, is just moaning for moanings sake.

[EqualOpportunities]

Very good EO, cheeky tw*t

[SallyAnne]

royal national institute for the blind

Very good EO, cheeky tw*t