Reply to: CGT on access rights?

[rootsnall]

The sellers of the 3 gardens were prepared to knock all 3 of their own houses down to build a block of flats in the space so they don't mind a bit of aggro believe me! However, a block of flats isn't in keeping with the area and seeing as the entrance would be opposite a school planning for that idea was dead in the water.

Sounds like you've let lucky ! Haggle hard. It's the developer who is a bit powerless in the equation and should be made to pay the going rate for the plots. Without the garden owners you are going to get nothing ! I'm surprised they are willing to give you 40%. Go a bit easier on them in any negotiations

[MickeyP]

I really am suprised that they can't knock down one of the houses to gain access.

There usually aren't any planning restrictions to knocking a house down and if they expect to get pp to put houses up in the gardens there must be a fair bit of land to play with.

It might not be cost effective to knock down one house and put back three, but there shouldn't be a problem with replacing the demolished house with a house over the access.

Perhaps it's just that the sellers of the gardens don't want that much aggro.

tim

The sellers of the 3 gardens were prepared to knock all 3 of their own houses down to build a block of flats in the space so they don't mind a bit of aggro believe me! However, a block of flats isn't in keeping with the area and seeing as the entrance would be opposite a school planning for that idea was dead in the water.

[tim123]

I really am suprised that they can't knock down one of the houses to gain access.

There usually aren't any planning restrictions to knocking a house down and if they expect to get pp to put houses up in the gardens there must be a fair bit of land to play with.

It might not be cost effective to knock down one house and put back three, but there shouldn't be a problem with replacing the demolished house with a house over the access.

Perhaps it's just that the sellers of the gardens don't want that much aggro.

tim

[boredsenseless]

3 new houses will probably be worth around 325-335K (would've been 280-300k when last offer was made) each. So thats 1 million for the deveoper minus 450k (3x150k) to build them, market them, etc leaves 550k for distributing between the developers, the garden owners and us. Guessing the developer takes half (275k) that leaves 275k to be split 60-40 gives us 110k between 3 houses which is 36.6K each.

No it isn't. the houses are absolutely worthless without the access so just turn round and say you want 100K each. They can only say no, but at some point they have to come back and say yes or else give up on the development since you can't sell a house that you can't get to

a) to build in the first place
b) to live in.

Don't let them dictate the payment scales, you are the one with the upper hand not the developer or the garden owners, since those parties actually want to do the deal and I guess other than a bit of easy money you couldn't give a t0ss one way or the other.

Also factor into the cost the extra traffic, loss of light, noise and loss of amenity as the person who buys your house next sure as hell will.

[rootsnall]

3 new houses will probably be worth around 325-335K (would've been 280-300k when last offer was made) each. So thats 1 million for the deveoper minus 450k (3x150k) to build them, market them, etc leaves 550k for distributing between the developers, the garden owners and us. Guessing the developer takes half (275k) that leaves 275k to be split 60-40 gives us 110k between 3 houses which is 36.6K each.

Ah ! I misread the 6 versus 3 bit, its only 3 newbies.

The old rough style of working out the value of land was finished house selling price = 33% plot + 33% build cost + 33% risk and profit. But the land cost part has shot up with the property boom and I'd say in a lot of cases would be 50%+. Depends how much you want the hastle but I'd say if the figures you are working on are anywhere near correct there is scope to get quite a bit more out of the builder.

How well do you know the neighbours ? How much do you want the extra cash ? You could probably pay a local architect ( have a look for newbuilds recently passed with the local planners ) a grand or two and get planning permision yourself. There are developers queueing up for chances to build 3 desirable houses !

[threaded]

Don't forget you want cash up front as well!

None of this 'after the houses have been sold' crap, as they'll go bang right after and you'll be a creditor on nothing.

[MickeyP]

40/60 doesn't sound too bad, you are greedy, well done !

How much will the intended houses be worth ? A developer can knock up 4 bed houses for 100K a pop, if they sell at 250K, you are looking at 100K a plot. Ask for 300K and see if the developer turns red !? Worth paying for expert CGT advice !

Just weighing up buying a house with a big garden at the moment, there is a lot of 'known unknowns' involved !

Forgot to add there are a lot of amateur property developers out there who will pay silly prices for plots that a pro won't. If you are feeing particularly extra greedy you could have a word with the garden owners and work as a team and threaten to get it on the open market.

3 new houses will probably be worth around 325-335K (would've been 280-300k when last offer was made) each. So thats 1 million for the deveoper minus 450k (3x150k) to build them, market them, etc leaves 550k for distributing between the developers, the garden owners and us. Guessing the developer takes half (275k) that leaves 275k to be split 60-40 gives us 110k between 3 houses which is 36.6K each.

[rootsnall]

Thanks Rootsnall good advice. I think they offered us a 40/60 split with the garden owners when we sent them packing last time. I've already pointed out to the developer that house prices have increased significantly since the last offer and so will be interested to see what they come back with this time! Just a shame I have to split it with my neighbours! How greedy can you get!?

40/60 doesn't sound too bad, you are greedy, well done !

How much will the intended houses be worth ? A developer can knock up 4 bed houses for 100K a pop, if they sell at 250K, you are looking at 100K a plot. Ask for 300K and see if the developer turns red !? Worth paying for expert CGT advice !

Just weighing up buying a house with a big garden at the moment, there is a lot of 'known unknowns' involved !

Forgot to add there are a lot of amateur property developers out there who will pay silly prices for plots that a pro won't. If you are feeing particularly extra greedy you could have a word with the garden owners and work as a team and threaten to get it on the open market.

[MickeyP]

The crawling bit sounds like you are on top of things ! Remember at all times everybody involved is greedy and is after money, don't bend to any sob stories. The garden owners will be thinking in terms of giving you a grand or two, I would start your negotiationg stance as I want half of the whole deal and hopefully end up in the middle. Mention your loss of privacy, loss of value to your house etc etc

A way of answering the CGT query is to ring the IR tax helpline and don't say "I am thinking of" but say "I have just sold a piece of land etc etc -> do I owe you any tax ?". I used this approach in a similar situation and they gave a straight answer.

Thanks Rootsnall good advice. I think they offered us a 40/60 split with the garden owners when we sent them packing last time. I've already pointed out to the developer that house prices have increased significantly since the last offer and so will be interested to see what they come back with this time! Just a shame I have to split it with my neighbours! How greedy can you get!?

[rootsnall]

There's no other access. This whole thing kicked off over a year ago but according to a bit of gossip we were asking too much for the access so the sellers of the gardens tried another plan which involved bulldozing existing houses to get at the land. This idea didn't get off the drawing board due to no possibility of planning permission being granted. So they've come crawling back to us now. The developer is speaking to the owners of the 3 gardens involved and then will come back to us with an offer so no land has been bought before all parties are agreed.

The crawling bit sounds like you are on top of things ! Remember at all times everybody involved is greedy and is after money, don't bend to any sob stories. The garden owners will be thinking in terms of giving you a grand or two, I would start your negotiationg stance as I want half of the whole deal and hopefully end up in the middle. Mention your loss of privacy, loss of value to your house etc etc

A way of answering the CGT query is to ring the IR tax helpline and don't say "I am thinking of" but say "I have just sold a piece of land etc etc -> do I owe you any tax ?". I used this approach in a similar situation and they gave a straight answer.

[MickeyP]

If you really do have total control of whether 6 building plots are viable or not you are in a very strong position, don't give it away lightly. Remember pro builder/developers are used to this sort of stuff, treat them like the worst agent you have ever come across. Can any other neighbours give them access ? Has the builder actually bought the plot already ( www.landregistryonline.co.uk and use the map search facility ) ? You may be able to make enquires about buying the plot yourself, that will really put the pressure on !

There's no other access. This whole thing kicked off over a year ago but according to a bit of gossip we were asking too much for the access so the sellers of the gardens tried another plan which involved bulldozing existing houses to get at the land. This idea didn't get off the drawing board due to no possibility of planning permission being granted. So they've come crawling back to us now. The developer is speaking to the owners of the 3 gardens involved and then will come back to us with an offer so no land has been bought before all parties are agreed.

[Back In Business]

If you live on a development-type estate you may have a clause in the contract (I don't think they are called contracts actually but it's something like that) which allows the developers access to your property as long as they repair it when they are done.

[Troll]

Taxation web is a very good site for this sort of stuff but it does depend on who picks up your thread, the prof experts do seem to leave a thread alone once one person has started answering your query. Have a read through the old posts and you may find something similar.

I think you will be OK if you are under the normal size limits for selling off part of your garden.

If you really do have total control of whether 6 building plots are viable or not you are in a very strong position, don't give it away lightly. Remember pro builder/developers are used to this sort of stuff, treat them like the worst agent you have ever come across. Can any other neighbours give them access ? Has the builder actually bought the plot already ( www.landregistryonline.co.uk and use the map search facility ) ? You may be able to make enquires about buying the plot yourself, that will really put the pressure on !

As an indication a housing corporation wanted to build flats on a plot of land off a old dirt track - the track was public so no problem, but the council insisted on a visibility splay where the track met the main road.
There was a house on the corner which had to sell a very very small part of it's garden to make the splay. Checking the land registry details showed that the owner got £240,000 for selling the land!

[rootsnall]

thanks - will do

Taxation web is a very good site for this sort of stuff but it does depend on who picks up your thread, the prof experts do seem to leave a thread alone once one person has started answering your query. Have a read through the old posts and you may find something similar.

I think you will be OK if you are under the normal size limits for selling off part of your garden.

If you really do have total control of whether 6 building plots are viable or not you are in a very strong position, don't give it away lightly. Remember pro builder/developers are used to this sort of stuff, treat them like the worst agent you have ever come across. Can any other neighbours give them access ? Has the builder actually bought the plot already ( www.landregistryonline.co.uk and use the map search facility ) ? You may be able to make enquires about buying the plot yourself, that will really put the pressure on !

[MickeyP]

thanks - will do