Reply to: Hoaxley. Priceless

[DimPrawn]

First problem there, it is increasingly becoming the standard company policy to only give references that state "X worked here from/to" due to legal concerns. Out of the last 4 contracts I worked this was the company policy for 3 of them.

2nd Problem: We don't trust you, when I first started out contracting (after first contract) I used to provide references (previous permie role and first contract) to whatever agent asked, guess what happened? Both people who were providing the references called me up and told me to never give their names again because they were sick and tired of agents calling them up and giving them the hard sell

So for last 9 years I have refused at any point to provide a single reference to an agent and only provided them direct to client after the position has been offered to me (and even then only been asked to do so once)

HR and their permie mentality need to get out of the contractor recruitment process because they only stuff it up

Abso****inlutely. Amen.

[Not So Wise]

thats not the type of reference I'm talking about. I talking about a description of how they affected the team, their general attitude, performance, achievments etc - than just start dates and end dates.

First problem there, it is increasingly becoming the standard company policy to only give references that state "X worked here from/to" due to legal concerns. Out of the last 4 contracts I worked this was the company policy for 3 of them.

2nd Problem: We don't trust you, when I first started out contracting (after first contract) I used to provide references (previous permie role and first contract) to whatever agent asked, guess what happened? Both people who were providing the references called me up and told me to never give their names again because they were sick and tired of agents calling them up and giving them the hard sell

So for last 9 years I have refused at any point to provide a single reference to an agent and only provided them direct to client after the position has been offered to me (and even then only been asked to do so once)

HR and their permie mentality need to get out of the contractor recruitment process because they only stuff it up

[stackpole]

Try seeing who they have worked with rather than for - agent that got me my current job had a chat with me beforehand about where I was working, who with (found some common contacts) and then rang some of them before considering putting me forward for the role.

Nothing formal as a reference, but you might get a better feel - he's asked me about people that I've worked with that he has on the database, to see what they were like before putting the CV forward.

Formidable, faqqer! How often is there one born?

[darmstadt]

Considering I have spent a lot of time in Germany and it is illegal to write a bad reference there, how are you going to know.

Kind of true but what you are allowed to do is word it so that you thought that the employee was a bag of dung. You can even buy books which tell you how to do it.

[TheFaQQer]

thats not the type of reference I'm talking about. I talking about a description of how they affected the team, their general attitude, performance, achievments etc - than just start dates and end dates.

But then I think you knew that really.

With regards to just sending off the cheapest so I make the highest margin - that's ideal as long as they can do the job of course.

Try seeing who they have worked with rather than for - agent that got me my current job had a chat with me beforehand about where I was working, who with (found some common contacts) and then rang some of them before considering putting me forward for the role.

Nothing formal as a reference, but you might get a better feel - he's asked me about people that I've worked with that he has on the database, to see what they were like before putting the CV forward.

Of course, it relies on contractor honesty - but why should that be better/worse than honesty from a client?

[The Lone Gunman]

thats not the type of reference I'm talking about. I talking about a description of how they affected the team, their general attitude, performance, achievments etc - than just start dates and end dates.

But then I think you knew that really.

With regards to just sending off the cheapest so I make the highest margin - that's ideal as long as they can do the job of course.

Considering I have spent a lot of time in Germany and it is illegal to write a bad reference there, how are you going to know.
More and more in the UK managers are reluctant to write honest references.
I know a manager who wrote a glowing reference to get rid of someone, and a tulipe one to keep someone.

Many managers hate contractors so will only ever write "he was crap".

The only way ypou and your clients can be sure is by you engaging with the client and the contractor to provide the right person for the right role.

[Cliphead]

thats not the type of reference I'm talking about. I talking about a description of how they affected the team, their general attitude, performance, achievments etc - than just start dates and end dates.

Permie shit

[meridian]

thats not the type of reference I'm talking about. I talking about a description of how they affected the team, their general attitude, performance, achievments etc - than just start dates and end dates.

But then I think you knew that really.

With regards to just sending off the cheapest so I make the highest margin - that's ideal as long as they can do the job of course.

Get with the real world - nobody gives references like that anymore, particularly on shorter-term contracts.

[wendigo100]

Just do what you always do - pick the three that want the lowest daily rate so you maximise your profits.

That doesn't always work. In some of the arrangements I've come across, where big organisations use a preferred body shop, the client dictates the agency cut. So the more I earn, the more the agent earns.

[phonemonkey]

thats not the type of reference I'm talking about. I talking about a description of how they affected the team, their general attitude, performance, achievments etc - than just start dates and end dates.

But then I think you knew that really.

With regards to just sending off the cheapest so I make the highest margin - that's ideal as long as they can do the job of course.

[meridian]

My technical knowledge is of a very high standard, having on several courses related directly to my specialism, and I act as a 1st round of interview process for my clients.

The problem is the HR people that we have to deal with are not technical and therefore cannot always see who is best, and will often simply opt for the CV with the most buzz-words which is ineffective.

The more help we can give them the better – this is where a clear and frank reference that they can understand helps.

In terms of suggesting people are lying – surprise, surprise people often do. I have lost count of the times someone has initially claimed they could pick up loadrunner in a day or two as they are a fast learner and therefore deserve 500/day despite the fact they have never used an automated tool in their life.

I’m not saying all contractors lie but a lot do, as do agents admittedly, but enough do to make us wary.

How does a reference that states "X contracted here and we can confirm he did [insert technical description here]" help the client? It still uses the technical jargon, and you're still not getting off your ar$e to translate the requirements and cv's for the client.

Just do what you always do - pick the three that want the lowest daily rate so you maximise your profits.

[phonemonkey]

My technical knowledge is of a very high standard, having on several courses related directly to my specialism, and I act as a 1st round of interview process for my clients.

The problem is the HR people that we have to deal with are not technical and therefore cannot always see who is best, and will often simply opt for the CV with the most buzz-words which is ineffective.

The more help we can give them the better – this is where a clear and frank reference that they can understand helps.

In terms of suggesting people are lying – surprise, surprise people often do. I have lost count of the times someone has initially claimed they could pick up loadrunner in a day or two as they are a fast learner and therefore deserve 500/day despite the fact they have never used an automated tool in their life.

I’m not saying all contractors lie but a lot do, as do agents admittedly, but enough do to make us wary.

[_V_]

As a proper business I give references in the same way as other IT companies. Through case studies on my website with the odd quote from client management.

HTH

[Hugh Jardon]

References Pre-Submission

http://www.jobserve.com/W83B3BD9F6611EB1F.job

What absolute bollocks!

This mob were once (1997) not too bad.

Avoid like the plague now.

[To BI or not to BI?]

Agents don't add value: they say that they add value, and charge for the value that they say they have added.

A much better racket than being clever and educated and having 10-20 years experience of useful skills!

I guess that's my whole point. Still, they are a necessary evil and I do try and educate them if I can (I'm just too nice a person, I guess)