Reply to: End of the UK

[AlfredJPruffock]

I'll just add for those who may be unfamiliar with this, that it is Robert Burns's condemnation of those who sold out Scotland's independence for the lure of English Gold: notably, the "parcel of rogues" that Burns condemned were the Scots who sold out, not the English.

I take the point as applied to the present day.

The Love of Money is the root of All Evil

[expat]

It's time Expat - It's Time

...
We're bought and sold for English gold,
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

I'll just add for those who may be unfamiliar with this, that it is Robert Burns's condemnation of those who sold out Scotland's independence for the lure of English Gold: notably, the "parcel of rogues" that Burns condemned were the Scots who sold out, not the English.

I take the point as applied to the present day.

[AlfredJPruffock]

It's now 40 years since Schumacher pointed out that the Germans would be saying the same things about Denmark if they had succeeded in annexing it. And pointing out how Denmark couldn't survive economically on its own.

Instead, if you now ask a Dane whether they wouldn't prefer to be German, I think you'd get a different view.

As Schumacher said, larger countries rarely subsidise their smaller neighbours: usually they exploit them under the guise of an accounting system that makes it look like subsidy.

This is exactly the case with England and Scotland. You point to the Barnett Formula advantages to Scotland but miss the fact that tax flows from Scotland to the UK more than cover that. You point to greater GDP and tax income from SE England than from Scotland, conveniently ignoring the fact that this naive calculation (for example) shows all oil profit and tax as being generated in London (because that's where the oil companies' accountants and tax offices are), somewhat unrealistic by any standards.

It's time Expat - It's Time

Robert Burns on the Union of the Crowns


Fareweel to a' our Scotish fame,
Fareweel our ancient glory;
Fareweel even to the Scotish name,
Sae fam'd in martial story!
Now Sark rins o'er the Solway sands,
And Tweed rins to the ocean,
To mark whare England's province stands,
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

What force or guile could not subdue,
Thro' many warlike ages,
Is wrought now by a coward few,
For hireling traitors' wages.
The English steel we could disdain,
Secure in valor's station;
But English gold has been our bane,
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

O would, or I had seen the day
That treason thus could sell us,
My auld grey head had lien in clay,
Wi Bruce and loyal Wallace!
But pith and power, till my last hour,
I'll mak this declaration;
We're bought and sold for English gold,
Such a parcel of rogues in a nation!

[expat]

Exactly. We've been funding these 3rd world neighbours of ours way too long.
Once the break up is complete, we should cut them off and let them float away.

It's now 40 years since Schumacher pointed out that the Germans would be saying the same things about Denmark if they had succeeded in annexing it. And pointing out how Denmark couldn't survive economically on its own.

Instead, if you now ask a Dane whether they wouldn't prefer to be German, I think you'd get a different view.

As Schumacher said, larger countries rarely subsidise their smaller neighbours: usually they exploit them under the guise of an accounting system that makes it look like subsidy.

This is exactly the case with England and Scotland. You point to the Barnett Formula advantages to Scotland but miss the fact that tax flows from Scotland to the UK more than cover that. You point to greater GDP and tax income from SE England than from Scotland, conveniently ignoring the fact that this naive calculation (for example) shows all oil profit and tax as being generated in London (because that's where the oil companies' accountants and tax offices are), somewhat unrealistic by any standards.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Roads to Freedom 1984 and beyond



SUPER-COMPUTER

Tony Blair is expected to announce today that sensitive personal data could be swapped by Whitehall departments. Ministers believe restrictions on data-sharing between civil servants are too strict. A 'super-database' or 'super-computer' holding everyone's records would be similar to a planned children's database.

DNA DATABASE

The Prime Minister has suggested that the DNA of every British adult should be stored by the state. The national database already holds 3.7 million samples, 6 per cent of the population, far higher than any other country. More than one million have been taken from people never convicted of an offence.

CCTV

The British are among the world's most observed people. Some 4.2 million closed-circuit television cameras record our every move - one for every 14 people and more per head than any other country in Europe or North America. The average Londoner can be caught on camera 300 times a day.

MEDICAL RECORDS

Millions of medical records are to be transferred to a central NHS database, allowing staff anywhere to access patients' information. People who object will not be able to opt out. The most personal information will be available to hospital managers, IT departments, high street pharmacists and civil servants.

IDENTITY CARDS

The first identity cards will be issued next year to foreign nationals and from 2009 to UK citizens. Anyone who renews a passport will be forced to register and the Government aims to make ID cards compulsory within six years. Fifty-two pieces of information, including fingerprints and iris scans, will be held.

SPY IN THE SKY

Motorists are already monitored through the soaring number of road cameras. In an effort to cut congestion, the Department of Transport is examining plans to use satellite technology to keep tabs on every vehicle's exact movements. Motorists, forced to have a black box fitted in their cars, would be billedfor every journey they make.

Growth of surveillance

1984: DNA fingerprinting method discoverd by accident by Sir Alec Jeffreys

1985: Outdoor CCTV camera erected in Bournemouth

1994: Government paves the way for huge expansion of CCTV

1995: The world's first National DNA Database established in England and Wales.

1999: Tony Blair gives a sample of his DNA

2001: Sir Alec Jeffreys calls for profiles of entire UK population to be held

2004: Number of DNA profiles hits the two million mark

2004: Information Commissonaire Richard Thomas warns that Britain is 'sleepwalking into a surveillance society'

2005: MPs vote to introduce identity cards

2006: National Black Police Assocation call for inquiry into why black people are over represented on DNA database

2006: Identity Cards Act becomes law

2007: Data-sharing by Whitehall departments likely to be introduced

2008: Foreign nationals will have to start supplying fingerprints, eye or facial scans added to a National Identity register

2008: Children's database, covering all under-16s in England and Wales, will be launched

2009: The first biometric identity cards will be issued to British citizens when they renew their passport

2010: NHS Database will store the records of 50 million patients providing details over the internet

2012?: ID cards compulsory

[DimPrawn]

We have cut the links between child
and parent, and between man and man, and between man and woman.
No one dares trust a wife or a child or a friend any longer.
But in the future there will be no wives and no friends.
Children will be taken from their mothers at birth, as one
takes eggs from a hen. The sex instinct will be eradicated.
Procreation will be an annual formality like the renewal of a
ration card. We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are
at work upon it now. There will be no loyalty, except loyalty
towards the Party. There will be no love, except the love of
Big Brother. There will be no laughter, except the laugh of
triumph over a defeated enemy. There will be no art, no
literature, no science. When we are omnipotent we shall have no
more need of science. There will be no distinction between
beauty and ugliness. There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment
of the process of life.

2007 - New Labour

[AlfredJPruffock]

Torran has described it about right.

It's another 1984 theme. I really don't know why I said it now - it just popped out.

The room darkened as the talk turned to Eric Blairs 1984 ...

You too Wendigo ?

I thought I had purged myself earlier this year of Eric Blair when I had about a month of threads last Jan including the Central Scrutiniser - for those who may recall but I cant help it - is there no escape from this darkness ?

You'll be shooting up on anything
Tomorrows never there
Beware the savage jaw
of 1984 ...

[Swamp Thing]

If the CIA are reading this board (and why wouldn’t they?), please please please rendition Gordon Brown’s @rse to Camp X-Ray.

[Troll]

Torran has described it about right.

It's another 1984 theme. I really don't know why I said it now - it just popped out.

I thought you were replying to my Big Ben post.... your mind must have been elsewhere

[Buffoon]

eh???

We have cut the links between child
and parent, and between man and man, and between man and woman.
No one dares trust a wife or a child or a friend any longer.
But in the future there will be no wives and no friends.
Children will be taken from their mothers at birth, as one
takes eggs from a hen. The sex instinct will be eradicated.
Procreation will be an annual formality like the renewal of a
ration card. We shall abolish the orgasm. Our neurologists are
at work upon it now. There will be no loyalty, except loyalty
towards the Party. There will be no love, except the love of
Big Brother. There will be no laughter, except the laugh of
triumph over a defeated enemy. There will be no art, no
literature, no science. When we are omnipotent we shall have no
more need of science. There will be no distinction between
beauty and ugliness. There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment
of the process of life.

1984 - George Orwell.

[Torran]

Nope... but a remarkable amount of English support for letting Scotland go

hardly a fecking surprise. Couldn't care less to be honest, we're all fooked anyway.

[Troll]

Spacecadet did. He's got family in Carlisle.

He is correct - but being too literal when I said rebuild HW- and I can't think of the word for a conceptual idea rather than a geophysical location... & it's not bolloxs btw

[wendigo100]

eh???

Torran has described it about right.

It's another 1984 theme. I really don't know why I said it now - it just popped out.

[Torran]

Spacecadet did. He's got family in Carlisle.

nibbles don't count

[Troll]

no one biting?

Nope... but a remarkable amount of English support for letting Scotland go