Reply to: Taxes

[WordIsBond]

So you ARE dumb enough to put yourself in the additional rate band?

[AtW]

Made table in Excel:

	Labour (good)	Labour (bad)	LibCon	Tory Scum
Profit	1000	1000	1000	1000
CT	28%	28%	20%	19%
Left	720	720	800	810
Div tax	25%	36.1%	30.6%	38.1%
Net:	540	460	556	501

Under LibCon it was agreed that CT would go down to 20%, that took things to almost OKish situation under Labour, but now Tory Scum took it to almost the worst point under Labour, and guess what - more dividend taxes are coming, so we'll be back to the worst (brief) time under Labour. Yeah, I'll vote for Tory Scum...

Fact is, under Tory Scum dividend tax as in %-tage is higher than under Labour, at the same time "high taxing" Germany got 25% flat rate on dividends...

And by the way, let's not forget that under Labour at the worst point there was 20% CT for profit of small companies of under £300k (pretty decent amount!), so we get this:

	Labour (small ltd)	Labour (small ltd, 50% inc tax level)
Profit	1000	1000
CT	20%	20%
Left	800	800
Div tax	25%	36%
Next:	600	511

Tory Scum made it worse for small company owners even when 50% income tax rate is factored!

Unfecking believable, Tory Scum managed the impossible - and what will they do with a bigger majority of drones ready to approve anything May wants?

[AtW]

You should be a Tory supporter, I guess. They've made it better for you, especially if you are dumb enough to put yourself into the additional rate band.

[WordIsBond]

It is worse if you factor in 45% rate and also it makes it now easy to add more to the dividend tax.

You say it is worse now than it was when the corporation tax rate was 28% and the max dividend rate was 25%. It was that way when the Tories took power in 2010. The additional rate at that point in time was 50%.

Now, corp tax is 19% (9% lower), dividend rate is 7.5% higher (net 6% higher) and the additional rate is 45% (5% lower).

You should be a Tory supporter, I guess. They've made it better for you, especially if you are dumb enough to put yourself into the additional rate band.

Is it repulsive that they lack either the sense, the courage, or both, to kill the additional rate? Of course. Idiots. Are taxes still way too high? Of course. Have they had an incredible opportunity to undo a lot of Labour's economic stupidity while there is no credible opposition, and are they insanely frittering it away with their insatiable lust to seize even more of the "middle" ground? Absolutely. Do they deserve my support? Not at all. I despise them.

But don't whinge about it being worse when actually it has gotten marginally better. It's not the Tories' fault Labour brought in that stupid additional rate tax. It's their fault they only removed half of it, but at least they did that. It's better than Labour or the LibDumbs would have done.

I've devised a new campaign slogan for them. "Vote Tory. Sure we're Idiots, but We're NOT QUITE AS STUPID as the Others."

[_V_]

You're talking s h i t e.

The options are:-

Be a permie, bend over and take it.
Be the high paying permie, bend over, take it, but also dish it out.
Be a real business
Or be the flexible worker who'skills are required by all the above. To whit, you should get all of the relevant tax breaks and benefits it provides.

I've now done all four, and frankly I'm back to being a contractor. A one man band who's skills, ability and good looks surpasses all others.

[shaunbhoy]

A one man band who's skills, ability and good looks surpasses all others.

Yeehaaaaa. You tell 'em MF!!

[SueEllen]

You're talking s h i t e.

The options are:-

Be a permie, bend over and take it.
Be the high paying permie, bend over, take it, but also dish it out.
Be a real business
Or be the flexible worker who'skills are required by all the above. To whit, you should get all of the relevant tax breaks and benefits it provides.

I've now done all four, and frankly I'm back to being a contractor. A one man band who's skills, ability and good looks surpasses all others.

weight

[MarillionFan]

You either run a business or pretend not to be a premie. My advice is to either grow balls and start running a business or go for a high-paying permie job. Sorry to be so blunt, but higher taxes are just an incentive to use your imagination and (legally) lower your tax bill, increase income, look for new opportunities, etc. If you don't feel like doing it, there are jobs that pay 115K or more. If you're good, you will get them.

You can moan about higher taxes all you want, but you have exactly zero influence over what will happen. So you might just as well start using your brains to make more money.

You're talking s h i t e.

The options are:-

Be a permie, bend over and take it.
Be the high paying permie, bend over, take it, but also dish it out.
Be a real business
Or be the flexible worker who'skills are required by all the above. To whit, you should get all of the relevant tax breaks and benefits it provides.

I've now done all four, and frankly I'm back to being a contractor. A one man band who's skills, ability and good looks surpasses all others.

[squarepeg]

You either run a business or pretend not to be a premie. My advice is to either grow balls and start running a business or go for a high-paying permie job. Sorry to be so blunt, but higher taxes are just an incentive to use your imagination and (legally) lower your tax bill, increase income, look for new opportunities, etc. If you don't feel like doing it, there are jobs that pay 115K or more. If you're good, you will get them.

You can moan about higher taxes all you want, but you have exactly zero influence over what will happen. So you might just as well start using your brains to make more money.

[AtW]

I wasn't defending the dividend tax, I was saying cutting CT costs little, gains in other ways, and makes economic sense.

But let's be clear. The dividend tax hike is 7.5%. We'll ignore the "dividend allowance", it's virtually gone now, and probably will be next year. So it's a 7.5% increase on dividends, which are paid out of after tax profit, right? So an effective increase of about 6%. And CT has dropped from 28% to 19%, a 9% decrease. So no, it's not worse than when CT was 28%. Not much better, but not worse.

It is worse if you factor in 45% rate and also it makes it now easy to add more to the dividend tax.

[WordIsBond]

It's about the amount they've projected to get from increased dividend taxation, let's not forget here that those CT cuts resulted in massive dividend tax hike, overall it's at least as bad as it was when CT was 28%, but top rate of tax on dividends was mere 25% (like in Germany now).

I wasn't defending the dividend tax, I was saying cutting CT costs little, gains in other ways, and makes economic sense.

But let's be clear. The dividend tax hike is 7.5%. We'll ignore the "dividend allowance", it's virtually gone now, and probably will be next year. So it's a 7.5% increase on dividends, which are paid out of after tax profit, right? So an effective increase of about 6%. And CT has dropped from 28% to 19%, a 9% decrease. So no, it's not worse than when CT was 28%. Not much better, but not worse.

[WordIsBond]

If £4.4bn is chump change, why chase the supposed £440m in the tax that we contractors are supposedly underpaying?

Will we really go down as low as Ireland's 12.5% CT rate, or Hungary's 9% CT rate? Estonia have an interesting concept of 0% Corporation Tax, instead only charging CT once funds have been distributed (20%).

The fictional £440m was never really about revenue. It's always been about "fairness" (i.e. propaganda). That's why they don't have to explain why it didn't change even after the dividend tax changes. It's a dreamed-up number used for manipulative purposes.

If we want to make Brexit really work we should go down to at least 15%. That's one of the few things Gidiot got right. But we should take it to 8 or 10% if we don't get a good trade deal. We'd better accept that, if we're going to Brexit, European economies are not our partners any longer, they are our competitors. And we need to really compete and give corporations a reason to locate here and hire here, and low CT rates is a very cost effective way to do that. If they aren't going to agree to a mutually beneficial trade deal, we should slash CT rates and economically cut their throats. Who is going to relocate from Britain (and 8% CT) for Germany's 30% or France's 33%?

And yes, £4.4bn is chump change. It's less than 1% of annual revenue. If you drop CT to 15%, you've cut only 2% of your revenue. Look at the table you linked to and see what happened between 2007-2008 and 2009-2010. The story is not how high CT rates are, but whether or not there is economic growth. When there isn't, revenue plummets (and social safety net spending increases, as well).

From 2010-2015 the corporation tax rate for large companies steadily dropped, more than 5%. CT revenue barely moved, but total revenue climbed steadily. Why? Companies were investing and hiring. VAT, NIC, and IT increased. CT is simply not important in the revenue picture. It's a sop to the idiots who talk about "evil corporations." If those evil corporations are hiring and producing goods or services that attract VAT, it's all good, even if a few individuals maybe do better than seems fair to other people. I'd rather see some lucky guy make £5m a year, even if he doesn't pay enough tax to be "fair" (however one defines "fair"), and hire 50 people, than see him leave for a friendlier tax jurisdiction.

This is basic economics. Anything you subsidise, you get more of. If you subsidise business by giving them lower tax rates than anywhere else, you'll get more business. And if you get more business, you get more employment and higher GDP, and employment tax and VAT are the big money makers. So subsidise business.

[AtW]

Estonia have an interesting concept of 0% Corporation Tax, instead only charging CT once funds have been distributed (20%).

This the most sensible concept IMHO - fair too, because you can make "profit" whilst having to spend it all on essential equipment for business, but they won't allow you full write off straight away (only up to level of annual allowance).

[AtW]

Yep, another £2.2bn in 2020. So a total of £4.4 billion. It's really a drop in the bucket.

It's about the amount they've projected to get from increased dividend taxation, let's not forget here that those CT cuts resulted in massive dividend tax hike, overall it's at least as bad as it was when CT was 28%, but top rate of tax on dividends was mere 25% (like in Germany now).

[chopper]

If £4.4bn is chump change, why chase the supposed £440m in the tax that we contractors are supposedly underpaying?

Will we really go down as low as Ireland's 12.5% CT rate, or Hungary's 9% CT rate? Estonia have an interesting concept of 0% Corporation Tax, instead only charging CT once funds have been distributed (20%).