Reply to: Tory voters

[PurpleGorilla]

I think the point is we all have a different starting hand but it does not excuse your behaviour.

I'm not saying everyone should become a millionaire, but I think everyone should at least *try* (even if they don't succeed) to be of net benefit to society. People have free will to try regardless of their genetics and background.

We don't let people off because of their background.

"Oh you shoplifted something? But I see you come from a disadvantaged council estate, in that case please feel free to go home it's not your fault"

Society rejects that as I reject the notion that people can't try hard to be a benefit to society because of the way they were raised.

Drug addiction is a big factor to crime and antisocial behaviour.

So many potentially promising lives wasted. The source of a large amount of mental health issues.

[AtW]

So screw the lot of you.

You'll have to take a number and get in line!

[AtW]

So, after the new dividend tax, proposed removal of claiming business expenses, handing out work permits to India like sweeties and now the proposal to force you onto permie payroll after 1 month, are you going to vote for call me Dave and Osbourne again?

Did you ask your (soon to be ex-) accountant about it???

[Flashman]

What's this never vote Tory 'again' business?

Had some discussions with a local group protesting about a massive housing estate that's going to be dumped on the town. Of course the infrastructure won't cope but hey plenty of money for housebuilders. Usual stuff.

Maybe there's a connection with the 500,000 million extra people moving here every year? 1 house needed to be built every 7 minutes to keep up. etc etc

Blank looks. Tory MP voted in with an increased majority.


So screw the lot of you.

[darmstadt]

Anyone been too Oxfordshire recently?

Is there sewage running down the middle of the streets?

Is the place failing apart and being taken over by gangs?

Strangely enough no - the cuts which have been made and continue to be made are affecting fringe services and the man complaining is just pissed off because his budget has been cut and so his bonus will be less.

The man who was complaining was the Prime Minister of the UK, I didn't know he got a bonus

[NibblyPig]

Nope this argument is one put up by scientists.

You, which includes your character, is influenced by your genetics and your environment.

So a poor person who decides to steal and ends up in jail if they were born in different circumstances with the same genetics could have ended up as a Tory MP who decided to put their duck house through expenses.....


And what influences free will? Your genetics and environment.

I think the point is we all have a different starting hand but it does not excuse your behaviour.

I'm not saying everyone should become a millionaire, but I think everyone should at least *try* (even if they don't succeed) to be of net benefit to society. People have free will to try regardless of their genetics and background.

We don't let people off because of their background.

"Oh you shoplifted something? But I see you come from a disadvantaged council estate, in that case please feel free to go home it's not your fault"

Society rejects that as I reject the notion that people can't try hard to be a benefit to society because of the way they were raised.

[SueEllen]

This is heading towards the argument that everything in the universe is predetermined and therefore nobody is accountable for any of their actions.

For example, if a poor person steals and is put in jail, it's not their fault, it's the fact they were poor and the way they were brought up, therefore it's immoral to put them (or anyone) in jail.
.

Nope this argument is one put up by scientists.

You, which includes your character, is influenced by your genetics and your environment.

So a poor person who decides to steal and ends up in jail if they were born in different circumstances with the same genetics could have ended up as a Tory MP who decided to put their duck house through expenses.....

But we denounce that and state that people have free-will regardless of their background.

And what influences free will? Your genetics and environment.

[NibblyPig]

All this comes from your parents and your surroundings when you were growing up.

Some people had decent parents while others had reckless parents, either way your environment influenced you to work hard as you knew you could achieve.

Linky

This is heading towards the argument that everything in the universe is predetermined and therefore nobody is accountable for any of their actions.

For example, if a poor person steals and is put in jail, it's not their fault, it's the fact they were poor and the way they were brought up, therefore it's immoral to put them (or anyone) in jail.

But we denounce that and state that people have free-will regardless of their background. And I assert that as well. You may be disadvantaged, my parents weren't exactly rich and childhood was far from pleasant, but I made the most of it. I taught myself. I got a whopping big loan to go to university and worked during the summer in a crap job to help fund it. Other people that I grew up with that had similar backgrounds did not try so hard.

In my circle of friends I think everybody has a degree but none are high earners except for a doctor.

At 2 of my old jobs one developer didn't have a degree at all and they were kicking ass self-learning. One of them was raised by a single-mum.

I just see it as excuses. If you can show me these people who've tried hard but failed then I might say ok fair enough. But the majority haven't tried. They haven't *wanted* to try. And that's fine, but they should not expect handouts for their 5 kids and their house deposit.

[darmstadt]

It's part of his job not to have any idea so that he won't knowingly lie to Parliament, which is a no-no for a Prime Minister.

Of course he doesn't lie, he has lackeys and plebs to do that As for ideas, well, I bet if you were either a senior civil servant or head of a global business (in particular in the financial arena) and whispered into his ear that it might be a good idea to tax self employed people at the top rate, then I think that might just occur

[original PM]

Anyone been too Oxfordshire recently?

Is there sewage running down the middle of the streets?

Is the place failing apart and being taken over by gangs?

Strangely enough no - the cuts which have been made and continue to be made are affecting fringe services and the man complaining is just pissed off because his budget has been cut and so his bonus will be less.

Has anyone been part of a large company which has to do some rationalisation?

Seen huge levels of senior/middle management gone, large swathes of minions pushed onto the street?

And yet the business still functions and the reason it has to be done is to do with the feathering of the nest by these people who try and make their job seem more important and worth more money whilst in reality achieving less.

Do you see the empire building which goes on which just makes companies less and less effective as the person in charge just makes up more and more bureaucratic bulltulip to cover their complete incompetence.

The 'business' (or government) has to strip all this out, get back to bare bones and try and rebuild - and it would appear they are in the middle of a 5 year plan.

[SueEllen]

It's not even contracting, I started my career 6 years ago and there are still people working at the same permie job I started at when I was earning about 16k. They're earning ~23k now, and are too scared to leave and seek out something out of their comfort zone, and not inclined to work harder in their spare time to learn new stuff. I've worked in 5 permie roles since then, before starting contracting earlier this year.

Outside of people I've worked with, I have a lot of friends who can only do stuff if it's after payday otherwise they're broke. I don't know how people can live like that. If I was broke I would probably save up a buffer of money then adjust my living so my money lasts through the month. Or work harder to get a better job or skills.

All this comes from your parents and your surroundings when you were growing up.

Some people had decent parents while others had reckless parents, either way your environment influenced you to work hard as you knew you could achieve.

Linky

[SueEllen]

Too soon to vote any way at the moment.

This next election could be the biggest abstention ever - does there have to be a certain percentage turnout for the election to be classed as legal?

The problem is at the moment neither party offer a decent solution to the country's problems. We're propping up more and more people (as per the social spend budget) and there is less and less cash flowing into government pockets.

Mauve Monkey is right, the boomers and their final salary pensions will kill a lot off, along with them generally shuffling off their mortal coils far later than they should do. Tories need to find this final salary money from somewhere to pay for the boomer vote at the next two elections. Meanwhile, the genuine grafters have nobody to vote for. We need the general infrastructure that a socialist government would back but a genuine capitalist market on top of that, rather than some non-competitive semi-communist third-world headed lead balloon that we'd end up with Komrade Korbyn. Lib Dems are busy contemplating their navels and with the right policies and propaganda, UKIP could make some serious ground in the next election.

There's a gap in the market for a good right-wing, non-racist party to appreciate that a good infrastructure build with plenty of employment would potentially become self-funding through tax income from the workers, in addition to taking them off the social support budget.

Get the railway infrastructure up to scratch with a rail-freight network that would take HGVs off the road. That in turn would reduce damage to motorways and reduce congestion on them. Extend the M6 Toll up from Cannock to the M56 with a single major drop-off junction at the A500 near Stoke. Look at the speed limit and shove it. On longer stretches of motorway, up it to 80mph. A trial on the M6 from the M55 to Lancaster for example to see what happens. Modern cars are capable of higher speeds and improved breaking distances - perhaps have a ten-year age limit or some other measure to indicate what cars are allowed to do 80.

Continue looking at HS2, but also look in the meantime at the feasibility of running a dedicated priority Virgin Pendalino from Euston to Manchester non-stop. It currently runs at 2hr 7mins with 3-4 stops; treat it like Gordon on the Isle of Sodor and have it as the mainline priority with other trains getting out of its way and you're looking at a train that can do 125mph no problem, meaning that it could do Euston to Manchester in about 1hr 38min, eventually dropping to 1hr 8mins for HS2.

So much could be done to improve the rest of the country but we've got a Westminster bubble to protect so unfortunately it's not happening.

You forgot the most important thing - build bloody houses like it's going out of fashion.

[LondonManc]

Too soon to vote any way at the moment.

This next election could be the biggest abstention ever - does there have to be a certain percentage turnout for the election to be classed as legal?

The problem is at the moment neither party offer a decent solution to the country's problems. We're propping up more and more people (as per the social spend budget) and there is less and less cash flowing into government pockets.

Mauve Monkey is right, the boomers and their final salary pensions will kill a lot off, along with them generally shuffling off their mortal coils far later than they should do. Tories need to find this final salary money from somewhere to pay for the boomer vote at the next two elections. Meanwhile, the genuine grafters have nobody to vote for. We need the general infrastructure that a socialist government would back but a genuine capitalist market on top of that, rather than some non-competitive semi-communist third-world headed lead balloon that we'd end up with Komrade Korbyn. Lib Dems are busy contemplating their navels and with the right policies and propaganda, UKIP could make some serious ground in the next election.

There's a gap in the market for a good right-wing, non-racist party to appreciate that a good infrastructure build with plenty of employment would potentially become self-funding through tax income from the workers, in addition to taking them off the social support budget.

Get the railway infrastructure up to scratch with a rail-freight network that would take HGVs off the road. That in turn would reduce damage to motorways and reduce congestion on them. Extend the M6 Toll up from Cannock to the M56 with a single major drop-off junction at the A500 near Stoke. Look at the speed limit and shove it. On longer stretches of motorway, up it to 80mph. A trial on the M6 from the M55 to Lancaster for example to see what happens. Modern cars are capable of higher speeds and improved breaking distances - perhaps have a ten-year age limit or some other measure to indicate what cars are allowed to do 80.

Continue looking at HS2, but also look in the meantime at the feasibility of running a dedicated priority Virgin Pendalino from Euston to Manchester non-stop. It currently runs at 2hr 7mins with 3-4 stops; treat it like Gordon on the Isle of Sodor and have it as the mainline priority with other trains getting out of its way and you're looking at a train that can do 125mph no problem, meaning that it could do Euston to Manchester in about 1hr 38min, eventually dropping to 1hr 8mins for HS2.

So much could be done to improve the rest of the country but we've got a Westminster bubble to protect so unfortunately it's not happening.

[Zero Liability]

At no point have I said I think I'm better than or even feel superior in any way. Perhaps gutless is too strong. However, if they don't want to, they shouldn't begrudge anyone who does.

I choose to do what I do as I enjoy the flexibility, challenge and yes, the greater pay for the greater risk. What I believe is inequitable about everything the Tories (and previously Labour) are doing with IR35 is that they make no bones about levelling the playing field between permies and contractors because of the perceived advantages contractors are getting, without taking any account of the disadvantages of contracting.

I do think permies - especially those in the 40% band - are over-taxed (even more so when including fudges like NI), but that's a consequence of successive governments trying to bribe all and sundry and then convincing the taxpayer that it's their problem and they must now cough up. Value for money doesn't even come into the equation, for some reason. Part of the problem is that their prioritisation of where to cut (where it's not just cuts in spending growth rates) seems to be where it will be most visible and painful, perhaps so as to avoid further cuts to spending items of concern to various lobbyists.

In answer to the OP, no I won't be voting for them, I never have and won't be in the future, either. I'd like a genuine free enterprise option, but they're not it.

[OwlHoot]

IR35 isn't about levelling the playing field in terms of your take-home, it's about preventing you avoiding tax and paying less % than permies do on a much lower income.

Except it's broken due to punitive NI...

Why is it you always seem to want to defend the status quo, even when this is indefensible?