Reply to: Tank found in working order after 57 years underwater

[expat]

It was pretty cool stuff though (and still is very collectable).

I loved the old Zorki Cameras, which were rather basic Leica copies. Pretty good optics though, and cheap as chips in the 1970s. Had a couple of different model bodies and lenses but flogged them all to buy an Olympus OM1 when I went to uni. A pity really.

Hah! My acquisitiveness overpowers even my stinginess, so I still have the Zorki and the OM1. Both classics, and both still a pleasure to use, and good optics (though I gather that the individual Zorki's quality was a function of the vodka supply that day).

[AtW]

It is well known that German fighter production actually increased in 1944. But how much more would it have increased by had the bombing not continued?

If Speer says the truth (and all seems to point to it) then Allied bombings until 1944 were not really a problem, and actually helped prolong the war because of civilian casualties making population raid along current leader, whoever he is.

The right strategy was to bomb, but focus on specific plants in supply chain like that ball bearing plant. I'd say at the time real war was in Atlantic against u-boats anyway, the rest was just noise to keep air branch busy.

[Lucifer Box]

Yes ball bearing is a good example - but he was reliefed that Allies did not continue on this strategy, it was a one off raid on the plant, and only in 1944 this purposeful policy was restarted.

Meanwhile Germany's war production was increasing and reached it's peak in 1944, so allied bombings really did not do anywhere as near as they could have done at the time when it mattered most - 1941 and 1942, or even 1943. In 1944 second front was open, so effectiveness of bombings was no longer strategic anymore.

The effectiveness was largely secondary in nature I think. Many resources were diverted into air defence and so on.

It is well known that German fighter production actually increased in 1944. But how much more would it have increased by had the bombing not continued? Besides, without the millions of troops the Soviets had at their disposal, there wasn't much else the western allies could do.

[Lucifer Box]

Not only that, but Keith Miller scored 110 in the 4 Victory Test Cricket at Lord's. Oh yes, 6th August 1945, truly a great day in world sport.

[AtW]

Yes ball bearing is a good example - but he was reliefed that Allies did not continue on this strategy, it was a one off raid on the plant, and only in 1944 this purposeful policy was restarted.

Meanwhile Germany's war production was increasing and reached it's peak in 1944, so allied bombings really did not do anywhere as near as they could have done at the time when it mattered most - 1941 and 1942, or even 1943. In 1944 second front was open, so effectiveness of bombings was no longer strategic anymore.

[Lucifer Box]

One effect would have been the extension of the war in Europe past August 6th 1945... and we all know what happened on that day.

Quite right. Ken Norton, future heavyweight boxing champ was born on that day.

[Lucifer Box]

Earlier than that even. Speer observes that the most difficult time he faced (and, yes, his book Inside the Third Reich is most excellent and highly recommended by me also) was after the bombing of the ball bearing factories in 1943. This almost shut down German tank production and only the fact that the attack was not followed up saved the day (from the German point of view).

[AtW]

But you know what I mean - what would the difference have been had not the western allies conducted its brutal bombing campaign? A lot.

Allies should have focussed on bombing of key factories knocking out of which would have serious effect down the supply chain - this is what they started doing in 1944 and it had serious effect - if you have not read Speer (who was responsible for armaments so he knew it first hand) then do, I find his book very honest and he comes across actually like a decent person.

A lot of German civilians were not working in military factories - men were on the front, and Hitler did not want Reich's women to work in factories.

[Lucifer Box]

Industry relies on civilians. But you know what I mean - what would the difference have been had not the western allies conducted its brutal bombing campaign? A lot.

[Mailman]

...Soviet build quality...[/i]

Hehe, now there's three words that just dont look right together

Ill tell you what though, once the Ruskies had a design that they liked they literally stuck to it until it fell apart!

BTW, wasnt it something like 40,000 T34's built during the entire course of the war, as opposed to the Germans who's TOTAL TANK production of around 20,000 vehicles?

Regards

Mailman

[AtW]

Allied bombings were not that efficient in terms of impact on industry - civilians are the ones who took the main hit, even though I think in 1944 Allies started focusing on key supply chain elements, like say focus on power stations rather than disperse efforts, this had very bad effect - Speer wrote well about it in his book: he seems to be pretty much the only senior nazi who gone through the Trials and retained respect of his enemies, died in London I believe.

[Lucifer Box]

Add a folding stock and visually there is little difference between the Kalashnikov and even earlier war-era German counterparts.

It's amazing what they managed to achieve despite having most of the above gorund facilities reduced to rubble. Thank heaven the Soviets were prepared to throw millions of men at the problem.

[AtW]

If Germans declared their main goal of defeating communism in exchange for long term lease of Russian territory, obviously without atrocities, then they would have won: Stalin was not exactly universally loved and at first Soviets, especially in Ukraine, helped fight against the regime, however in 1942 it sunk into people that they are being exterminated and this is fight not for communism but for their own survival and this was really the turning point in terms of morale: this is really when brutal fights to the death started, something that made Ost Front war much more feroucious than anything Germans or anyone else really faced before.

[AtW]

I liked it how visual design German's MP 44 assault rifle was knicked by Kalashnikov - apparently internally they are different, but given how much stuff was borrowed after the war from Axis R&D it seems to me that this is likely to be one of those things that was knicked.

Jets, missiles, tanks, military tactics and strategy and lots more from Axis determined dev of military of all countries for many decades. I'd say only now with smart bombs and real time info nets (that don't work yet) military make step ahead of what Axis developed 60 years ago.

[Lucifer Box]

Those German engineers were technically streets ahead of the Allies. At the other end of the scale, look at the MG42. Still in service today as the MG3 (modified to fire NATO rounds, of course).