Reply to: CIMA/AAT question

[kevpuk]

I have always found ACCA blurb in my CV background pretty handy - I took the courses way back in permie~land, as employer sponsored, and completed almost all of Level 2 papers (in those days, there was Level 1, Level 2 and then Level 3 which was more or less advanced versions of Level 2).
So, IANAA but have found the ACCA grounding et al. very useful both in professional terms and getting in front of Clients

[SarahL2012]

Am I correct in thinking this sort of course would be put down as capital, as it is not related to my current engagement? As opposed e.g. to an Excel refresher course, which would be.

Yup. If you decided to retrain as an accountant then you can put the costs through your limited company, but you won't get tax relief on them.

[Zero Liability]

Am I correct in thinking this sort of course would be put down as capital, as it is not related to my current engagement? As opposed e.g. to an Excel refresher course, which would be.

[Zero Liability]

Right, I was under the impression that BAs benefit from a knowledge of statistics, which is why I asked. I was unclear on what level of numeracy a management accountant would need, but it sounds like it's more or less the same as what practice roles require.

So you did o level maths many years ago, then became a 'Programmer or tester freelancer' and now you think accountancy seems a simple option and giving it a bash.? - or do you also have an accountancy background in your current role.? - This will help with our advice

Also when you say 'on offer from the big four' Is that an actual offer to you?

Not quite, I had intended to go into accountancy beforehand and previously got all the way to the Partner stage with EY for audit but failed at that point. I have worked within banking rather than IT roles, and I am currently in a banking contracting role. I don't think accountancy is 'simple' so much as it is lucrative if you become chartered, and suited to my strengths, and also a good vocation for going freelance again later on. Regarding my accountancy experience, I have basically had some exposure to it through my Masters, and regarding my mathematical competence, beyond GCSE, I have done basic econometrics courses as well as finance modules, but this was 3 years ago. So I would need to practise it a bit for anything more advanced than GCSE stuff.

When I say "on offer" I mean in terms of the perks of their grad programmes. If I had an offer from them I wouldn't even be asking the question.

Basically, I am looking for a qualification to give me a good grounding in accounts and also enhance my employability in the event that I don't get accepted on one of the grad programmes, as well as enhance my chances for getting onto a grad scheme and ensure I am back up to scratch with the level of numeracy required. From the answers here it does seem like the AAT is most conducive to that end.

Entry to the big 4 is competitive and you might be better with one of the smaller firms if you want to specialise in Tax. Any particular reason why tax?

If you do apply to smaller firms then you need to make sure you understand what is on offer as part of their training programme. Whichever exams you choose to do it is tough studying alongside a full time job so try and find one that will pay for exam courses and some study leave as well.

Yes, entry to the Big 4 is very competitive, even for the regional offices. This is what put me off applying for audit roles with firms below the top 7, as there won't be nearly as much exposure to FTSE 100 clients outside these firms. The reason I was leaning towards tax is that it seems to have a more even workflow than audit, and also because it gives you a thorough understanding of how the tax system works, but I take note of your comments that you will gain broader exposure to a bigger variety of firms with audit than tax, and I would assume you would gain better client exposure, since you are interfacing with them at their offices, which would be a very good launching pad for a career in industry after. I will probably focus on the larger firms for audit and tax with the mid tiers.

As you say it isn't easy to study for these qualification and work, so this should go some way further to proving I can hack it.

Anyway, thanks for all the comments, I think I have a clearer idea now of which qualification to go for in the interim.

[SarahL2012]

You don't need to be a maths genius to be a B.A.
Logical thinking and a questioning mindset are more important.

The same applies to accountancy! The maths geniuses tend to become actuaries.

[BjornMorg]

You don't need to be a maths genius to be a B.A.
Logical thinking and a questioning mindset are more important.

[SarahL2012]

Entry to the big 4 is competitive and you might be better with one of the smaller firms if you want to specialise in Tax. Any particular reason why tax?

If you do apply to smaller firms then you need to make sure you understand what is on offer as part of their training programme. Whichever exams you choose to do it is tough studying alongside a full time job so try and find one that will pay for exam courses and some study leave as well.

[tarbera]

can you clarify ??

Thanks for the breakdown. It depends on how long term you mean. My original plan was to become qualified with one of the Big Four, or the nearby mid tiers given how competitive entry to the Big 4 is, and work a good number of years there to gain experience within tax, and later moving back into freelancing, potentially emigrating to NZ at some point. I've been re-considering it, however, since tax is highly specialised and specific to the legal jurisdiction you operate in, and I don't really want to limit my opportunities this early on. So I take it the audit ACA route is a fairly good way to branch out later on and go into industry, however would this be the case even with the mid tiers just below the Big 4?

Regarding Excel, it is an area I am looking to gain further expertise in so I will probably be taking courses in it to refine my understanding of it. I think given what you've said it may be better to focus on grad schemes offering the ACA, though I would still consider taking the AAT as a failsafe.

So you did o level maths many years ago, then became a 'Programmer or tester freelancer' and now you think accountancy seems a simple option and giving it a bash.? - or do you also have an accountancy background in your current role.? - This will help with our advice

Also when you say 'on offer from the big four' Is that an actual offer to you?

[MicrosoftBob]

AAT can be a good first step, complete that and it can be used towards getting CIMA or ACCA

Or you could be like me get your AAT and decide it's not for you and move on

As has been said ACCA leaves you with the most options

[Martin at NixonWilliams]

If you are only interested in working in industry then CIMA will be the better option for you. ACA is mainly practice based and is unlikely to suit you.

ACCA on the other hand contains a mixture of both and in a sense leaves more doors open for somebody who is not entirely sure which route to follow career wise.

AAT is a technician level qualification but it is a great qualification to have before following either of the chartered routes above as you learn all the foundations of financial and management accounting which gives you a nice head start. I did the AAT before doing my ACCA and from my own experience it made that step up much easier compared with friends & colleagues who didn't and struggled.

Oh, and the AAT also gets you 5 exemptions on the CIMA papers or 3 on the ACCA papers!

[Zero Liability]

What exactly are you looking to do long term?

Thanks for the breakdown. It depends on how long term you mean. My original plan was to become qualified with one of the Big Four, or the nearby mid tiers given how competitive entry to the Big 4 is, and work a good number of years there to gain experience within tax, and later moving back into freelancing, potentially emigrating to NZ at some point. I've been re-considering it, however, since tax is highly specialised and specific to the legal jurisdiction you operate in, and I don't really want to limit my opportunities this early on. So I take it the audit ACA route is a fairly good way to branch out later on and go into industry, however would this be the case even with the mid tiers just below the Big 4?

Regarding Excel, it is an area I am looking to gain further expertise in so I will probably be taking courses in it to refine my understanding of it. I think given what you've said it may be better to focus on grad schemes offering the ACA, though I would still consider taking the AAT as a failsafe.

[SueEllen]

I know different people who ended up with different accountancy qualifications.
Like already said where do you aim to work?

[SarahL2012]

ACA - still often seen as the most prestigious accounting qualification because of the robust training programmes the big 4 operate. The majority of students in the big 4 are in audit while they are doing their qualifications -,fairly routine work, but you should get to see a variety of different industries & from quite early in you are dealing with senior execs at their clients. Very few people hang around when qualified - they head off into finance manager / financial controller roles in industry (those audit clients often being a good source of jobs).

CIMA - usually offered to trainees in industry. Not as consistent from a training point of view because only the best of companies make the effort to move their students around to get experience in different areas of finance. I think you can take longer to pass the exams than with ACA, so it is easier for more mature students who have families etc to factor in. If you go down the CIMA route then ask a lot of questions of the employer to understand training programmes and exactly what support is paid for & what study leave you'll get.

AAT - I know quite a few people who work in small accounting firms doing bookkeeper type work who have just AAT and none of the other exams.

There is also ACCA which is more on the technical accounting side - not one I can talk about because I've never offered it to students.

Down the line ACA from the big 4 can still demand a salary premium.


As for the maths? All pretty basic really - it's more about analysing data, interpreting rules & drawing conclusions than anything complex from a mathematical perspective. Being about to use Excel well is a better skill these days.

What exactly are you looking to do long term?

[Zero Liability]

Well I thought there may be some accountant contractors on here? Or BAs who may have done the CIMA? I'll ask my accountant as well.

[Alias]

Question for the accountants here (or anyone else) who may be familiar with this stuff.

I am considering gaining an accountancy qualification. Up to now I was considering the graduate roles on offer from the Big Four and some of the top mid tiers. I've also been looking into industry accountancy roles, however, which typically grant the CIMA, as opposed to the ACA and, to be honest, management accountancy sounds more interesting to me than audit, tax or compliance, and develops a wider, more transferable skill-set.

It has been a while though since I have done maths courses of any sort, so I am curious, what sort of level of numeracy do management accountants require compared to practice accountants? My background is an UG degree in econ and philosophy, which was followed up by a Masters in management.

And for the BAs here, if I were to branch out later as a BA, what level of numeracy would I be looking to attain? Do you find the CIMA useful in these sort of roles?

Finally, given that I will primarily be applying to grad roles, which tend to fully fund the ACA or CIMA, is there any benefit in doing the Certificate in Business Accounting over the (significantly cheaper) AAT (lv2)? The main reason I am considering the AAT is to enhance my skill-set and gain a grounding in accountancy beforehand, which would broaden the number of roles available to me outside of the traditional grad routes, and also because I am as yet not 100% decided on whether to pursue tax accountancy or management accountancy.

Any constructive thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.

Erm...what does your accountant say/think?