Reply to: Contracted Hours issue - Advice please

[Murder1]

I think you have to make the call based on your situation though. I've never bought into a culture of consistent overtime, even when I was a permie - it just smacks of bad management. Good on you for sticking to your guns, I'd like to think I would do the same!

WHS, did exactly the same thing on current contract as it was only 1 hour here 1 hour there and whilst it might not have had any impact I have been renewed where others have been let go. As soon as it became consistent or longer in terms of hours they pushed me to invoice for additional hours.

Good luck Roguemeister

[sharper1]

Seems like this issue has been resolved but just to add my two pence worth. I'm 12 months into my first contract and was faced with a similar decision fairly early on. I took the decision that I would be happy to do occasional unpaid out of hours work in the interests of maintaining a good relationship with the client, especially since it was my first contract. We're talking to odd out of hours release and a an extra hour or two every now and then when my manager is up against a deadline and I can help deliver. I've since developed a great relationship with them and they've kept me in work for the past year from what was initially a 3 month contract. They have also been happy for me to take a couple of hours out in a morning for dentists/doctors appointments and still invoice them a full days work.

I think you have to make the call based on your situation though. I've never bought into a culture of consistent overtime, even when I was a permie - it just smacks of bad management. Good on you for sticking to your guns, I'd like to think I would do the same!

[Roguemeister]

Roguey,

Fair does to you for sticking to your guns with this one. Sounds like what they want is a mug not a contractor so let some other idiot work their nuts off for them. Although what's to say the next person wont be the same as you?

Ignore all the made up bulltulip reasons for getting rid. That's just them trying to justify themselves. I got made redundant from a permie job years ago. Real cowboy company who couldnt be arsed to go through the redundancy process properly and wanted leavers to sign an agreement to go. So what they did was search high and low for reasons to get rid - internet browsing logs, people had said things blah blah blah. It was so pathetic it was funny when I got dragged in and they read out the charge sheet :-)

(I had even apparently upset a customer by asking him how the football had gone the weekend! I knew the guy quite well and it was just a bit of friendly banter-funny as hell that was).

Anyway - Hope things work out for you and you get a decent contract soon....

Thanks psychocandy, I have a second interview on Friday so it's looking promising that I shouldn't be out too long.

Hopefully just long enough for me to get some well deserved PS3 time in. I've a stack of games I need to clear!

[psychocandy]

Hi everyone,

Just as an update to let you know how the situation went.

They terminated my contract!

I spoke to the agency who were on board with the idea that if they were expecting me to work extra for a prolonged period of time that my rate should be amended accordingly. They were trying to get my rate increased for the difference between the 2. Or I'd have accepted a clearer view of what they meant over "professional working day" and maybe a little bit more give than just take (20 hours a month free work from me for nothing in return - not happening)

I had, whilst waiting for the response, worked a bit extra as a gesture of goodwill.

So - they bring me in yesterday and claim that they can see I'm putting in the time, but my work ethic has dropped and I'm not working as hard all day and I'm disconnected. Also that I'm having more conversations with people (as opposed to the none that I was having before when everyone else was nattering away through the day) No actual evidence provided but the usual "some people have mentioned" and I'd had feedback which contradicted his statement.

The funniest part is that they gave their game away a week before by secretly interviewing someone for my role, without announcing that they had funding for an extra person or what they were being hired to do. They'd only just been denied a month prior due to the scope being reduced. There was no reason for this person joining other than to replace me.

Perhaps they thought they were being clever in their underhanded, secretive ways and that I wouldn't be expecting it.

Treat everyone as you would expect to be treated has always been my way, their behaviour will come back to haunt them

Anyway, job interview tomorrow to get back to the roles I want. I have more time to join in the fun of the forum too

Roguey,

Fair does to you for sticking to your guns with this one. Sounds like what they want is a mug not a contractor so let some other idiot work their nuts off for them. Although what's to say the next person wont be the same as you?

Ignore all the made up bulltulip reasons for getting rid. That's just them trying to justify themselves. I got made redundant from a permie job years ago. Real cowboy company who couldnt be arsed to go through the redundancy process properly and wanted leavers to sign an agreement to go. So what they did was search high and low for reasons to get rid - internet browsing logs, people had said things blah blah blah. It was so pathetic it was funny when I got dragged in and they read out the charge sheet :-)

(I had even apparently upset a customer by asking him how the football had gone the weekend! I knew the guy quite well and it was just a bit of friendly banter-funny as hell that was).

Anyway - Hope things work out for you and you get a decent contract soon....

[Lewis]

Hi everyone,

Just as an update to let you know how the situation went.

They terminated my contract!

I spoke to the agency who were on board with the idea that if they were expecting me to work extra for a prolonged period of time that my rate should be amended accordingly. They were trying to get my rate increased for the difference between the 2. Or I'd have accepted a clearer view of what they meant over "professional working day" and maybe a little bit more give than just take (20 hours a month free work from me for nothing in return - not happening)

I had, whilst waiting for the response, worked a bit extra as a gesture of goodwill.

So - they bring me in yesterday and claim that they can see I'm putting in the time, but my work ethic has dropped and I'm not working as hard all day and I'm disconnected. Also that I'm having more conversations with people (as opposed to the none that I was having before when everyone else was nattering away through the day) No actual evidence provided but the usual "some people have mentioned" and I'd had feedback which contradicted his statement.

The funniest part is that they gave their game away a week before by secretly interviewing someone for my role, without announcing that they had funding for an extra person or what they were being hired to do. They'd only just been denied a month prior due to the scope being reduced. There was no reason for this person joining other than to replace me.

Perhaps they thought they were being clever in their underhanded, secretive ways and that I wouldn't be expecting it.

Treat everyone as you would expect to be treated has always been my way, their behaviour will come back to haunt them

Anyway, job interview tomorrow to get back to the roles I want. I have more time to join in the fun of the forum too

Thanks for the update, it's always interesting to see how things turn out. Often we never find out.

[Scrag Meister]

That is not to say that you cannot do a Marcellus Wallis bendover later if you do get a firm offer if that's how you want to play it.

FTFY

Flexibility is part of the game but don't find yourself over any barrells.

[Roguemeister]

Update

Hi everyone,

Just as an update to let you know how the situation went.

They terminated my contract!

I spoke to the agency who were on board with the idea that if they were expecting me to work extra for a prolonged period of time that my rate should be amended accordingly. They were trying to get my rate increased for the difference between the 2. Or I'd have accepted a clearer view of what they meant over "professional working day" and maybe a little bit more give than just take (20 hours a month free work from me for nothing in return - not happening)

I had, whilst waiting for the response, worked a bit extra as a gesture of goodwill.

So - they bring me in yesterday and claim that they can see I'm putting in the time, but my work ethic has dropped and I'm not working as hard all day and I'm disconnected. Also that I'm having more conversations with people (as opposed to the none that I was having before when everyone else was nattering away through the day) No actual evidence provided but the usual "some people have mentioned" and I'd had feedback which contradicted his statement.

The funniest part is that they gave their game away a week before by secretly interviewing someone for my role, without announcing that they had funding for an extra person or what they were being hired to do. They'd only just been denied a month prior due to the scope being reduced. There was no reason for this person joining other than to replace me.

Perhaps they thought they were being clever in their underhanded, secretive ways and that I wouldn't be expecting it.

Treat everyone as you would expect to be treated has always been my way, their behaviour will come back to haunt them

Anyway, job interview tomorrow to get back to the roles I want. I have more time to join in the fun of the forum too

[escapeUK]

IMHO, it means an average of 8 hours a day max. With me, if its busy I will work the odd few hours extra - occasionally I've even worked a 20 hour day. But if I want to leave early a few days or take 1/2 day then no-one had better moan about it or that'll be the end of it. Also, working weekends - not for free fellas - if you want work I get to bill for it. Although its amazing how something becomes less urgent when you tell them you;re going to bill a day at the weekend then (as opposed to thenm thinking it was a freebie).

I experienced this when I was a permie. "Urgent" reports they needed ASAP, when completed they had forgotten they even asked for it, and was never mentioned again. You soon realise which people it is, and I never started anything on their 1st urgent request. 99% of the time, it was never mentioned again. The 1% that they asked for the 2nd time got done.

However, urgent requests as a contractor should be filled and invoiced for. Still most are never mentioned again.

[darrenb]

I am in my 1st contract and a situation has occurred that I need your advice on.

I'm currently contracted for 37.5 hours per week. Do to issues, the project I am on is behind and on a tight schedule. He pulled the team in to advise that we should be working a "professional day" as opposed to 9 - 5. In other words working as long as it takes to get the job done.

So they are paying for 37.5 hours but want 50 hours because they're on a tight schedule. Actually if they're on a tight schedule they would probably still prefer to 37.5 hours to 0 hours. Think about it from their perspective!

You're on a 1st contract. 1st contracts are often rough because people think they can take advantage of you. But your 2nd contract is usually better paid. This might be a good opportunity for you in fact to find a new gig based on the client's willingness to violate terms. This is what it means to be a contractor, rather than trying to cling onto a position at all costs, like an employee does.

Alternately, work for 50 hours and bill them for it. Or, if you really plan to spend your career working for free, I hear Workfare is awesome.

[psychocandy]

Just don't quit whatever you do. If it looks like they might follow through and remove you then milk it for all you can until they do so officially. Make it difficult for them.

What they 'may' do is tell you you've got a week left, and to spend a week handing over to someone else (depends how much is to be handed over). If it was me, depending on how much I needed that weeks money, I'd invoke my MOO clause and decline to come in for that week. They wont expect that and it'll wind them up a treat.

[psychocandy]

Thanks for all the advice guys, I'll respond briefly to a couple of questions and comments as I don't want to write a long essay!

My contract says 37.5 hrs with the agency and I have spoken to them and they are investigating. It also states that any extra needs to be agreed so that the relevant payment can be made, no agreement, no extra payment...

As I said I am willing to put some hours if it's an emergency. this is probably a 2 or 3 month block of extended hours which is almost to the end of my contract. The threat of the termination of contract is the thing that made me most angry.

There is also no real understanding of the work remaining/effort so they don't actually know whether any extra time is required.

They are refusing any negotiation of extra payment for any extra time worked. They wont entertain the thought of it. That was the card I played in the meeting. (I was very calm and nice about it too!)

I guess I need to see myself as a commodity, if you rent something and require it for longer than an agreed time you pay more (sometimes there's a little slack if you return it a little late, but there's always a cut off point at which the charge applies - also maybe a bad metaphor)

In terms of deliverable and D&C, as a project coordinator it is a little wooly as it's all about 'supporting the project' as opposed to a product deliverable unless anyone has any other experience on how you can pin it down in a contract? But the fact that the role is now not what they described it at all is another point of concern. Is that in itself enough for me to leave to avoid IR35?

I'm searching for another role (project management which is where my experience really is, the market was just dead when I took redundancy)and I've yet to decide whether I force the hours card and see how long it takes for them to remove me.

If I do I might start a wager if anyone wants to have a guess?

If anyone has any more advice, please keep it coming

Sorted then. If contract says 37/5 hours then its the agencies problem to sort out not yours.

Yes, a few extra hours for free ain't going to hurt in the long run for the sake of good will but to expect it consistently like this is taking the piss.

Think about - you get a plumber in to fit a shower for you, agree a price, then tell him either he fits a new sink as well for free he's getting the boot. What do you think will happen?

Similarly, when he's there, he might just fix the dripping tap for you for no extra charge without you even asking (and you'll be impressed he did it for free) or even if you ask him nicely.

Yeh, I know its tough cos you dont want to get the boot from the contract. Like I said, need to balance it all out though - is it still worth your while to do the extra hours for same pay? Also, OK you need to draw a line somewhere as well otherwise chances are they'll constantly take the piss, but principles and pride dont pay the bills.

Its you call I think dependent on how much you like the contract, how good the rate is, how close to home etc. If its crap and you think you can get something else easily then stick to your guns. If its brill apart from this, then suck it up, but draw the line somewhere.

[Contreras]

Your contract is with the agency so that's where you need to negotiate.

If the agent believes you will walk then they may take a squeeze on their margin that would keep both you and the client happy. I doubt it would compensate for 40 hours into 37.5 though, that's like 6-7% but you can try.

[Roguemeister]

Thanks for all the advice guys, I'll respond briefly to a couple of questions and comments as I don't want to write a long essay!

My contract says 37.5 hrs with the agency and I have spoken to them and they are investigating. It also states that any extra needs to be agreed so that the relevant payment can be made, no agreement, no extra payment...

As I said I am willing to put some hours if it's an emergency. this is probably a 2 or 3 month block of extended hours which is almost to the end of my contract. The threat of the termination of contract is the thing that made me most angry.

There is also no real understanding of the work remaining/effort so they don't actually know whether any extra time is required.

They are refusing any negotiation of extra payment for any extra time worked. They wont entertain the thought of it. That was the card I played in the meeting. (I was very calm and nice about it too!)

I guess I need to see myself as a commodity, if you rent something and require it for longer than an agreed time you pay more (sometimes there's a little slack if you return it a little late, but there's always a cut off point at which the charge applies - also maybe a bad metaphor)

In terms of deliverable and D&C, as a project coordinator it is a little wooly as it's all about 'supporting the project' as opposed to a product deliverable unless anyone has any other experience on how you can pin it down in a contract? But the fact that the role is now not what they described it at all is another point of concern. Is that in itself enough for me to leave to avoid IR35?

I'm searching for another role (project management which is where my experience really is, the market was just dead when I took redundancy)and I've yet to decide whether I force the hours card and see how long it takes for them to remove me.

If I do I might start a wager if anyone wants to have a guess?

If anyone has any more advice, please keep it coming

[psychocandy]

Its is a thin line sometimes between being a PITA for no reason and thus not getting renewals. After all, no-one wants a whinging contractor whos out of the door when the clock strikes 5 and wont be flexible at all.

Then again, I've found clients WILL take the piss most of the time. And amount of piss taking depends on how much you let them get away with - never a truer word spoken than give an inch take a mile.....

However, MOST will be reasonable and let it work both ways. Just don't be afraid to tell the client what you will do. Most will agree as long as you aint taking the piss.

For instance, current client asked me to support some work at 8pm the other night (which was going to take about 4 hours) so I said OK no problem, will be working at home from 4pm that day and depending on finishing time I might not be in at 9am next day. No problems. Did have a few calls on my mobile but just ignored them.

Of course, the dullard permies who were also involved were in at 9am, stayed in office till midnight and were still there at 9am next day (I stolled in at 10am). But leave the arselicking to them.

If client has moaned about this, then, of course, would have been last time I was flexible with them. Next time they asked I would have been unavailable at 8pm due to childcare issues. Up to them.

[SueEllen]

Even the term 'professional day' makes me laugh sometimes. Where is that defined. Whose definition is appropriate. Consultant surgeons have a professional day of around 4 hours. That suits me nicely lol.

I can inform you they don't.

It completely depends on what speciality they are in and where they work. Some spend more than 24 hours completing a complex operation.

This is why there are very few female surgeons even though the training has been improved so it's has more "friendly" hours.

Anyway back on topic what - psychocandy and Brillopad said.

If you haven't got the guts to learn to say no to people it's always worth having activities outside working (Brillopad's are extreme) where you have to also meet deadlines.

Then inform the team you are working with what you do.

That way if the client manager or anyone tries to have a "quiet" word with you about not "pulling your weight" you can tell everyone "loudly" why you are unable to do the extra hours for free. (It also makes it easier to get sponsorship money out of people, though expect them to check you actually completed it. )

If the client manager isn't happy with it then ignore him/her making comments. They can replace you and get another willing subject.