Reply to: Tough times right now

[Gentile]

In my line of work - Java/Banking - I'd say the last 4-8 weeks has shown me that the same 5 agencies with their respective sets of "made up" roles account for about 80% of what I'm seeing on Jobserve. These roles just get repeated every single day. You send a c.v., but get no response. It's getting to the stage where it's almost impossible to spot a "real" role.

Very frustrating.

I don't know why they do it either. Another thing you find with IBs is that, for permie roles more than contract, you apply and it's literally months later that they finally get in touch to say you look like you have exactly the skills they're after, and can you come in for an interview? Do they really think the sort of people they should be trying to recruit are still looking for work months after they've sent their CV out? That seems like a guaranteed way to recruit from the bottom of the barrel to me.

[alreadypacked]

I am giggling at the rates being offered at the mo. I was chased for a role offering £18.50 ph, for what I normally charge £90. I don't necessarily think it's the Bob influence, as Bobs can't do what I do, so I genuinely suspect it's people trying it on.

I'd rather take a year or two out than take a rate like that.

We are also heading into summertime/holiday/very quite time. Very few real roles, very little budget not already spent. Maybe the PM's are saying I need this role, but I only have this much budget left.

Never really look for something now if I can help it, try to be in a 6 month contract from April.

[Old Hack]

I am giggling at the rates being offered at the mo. I was chased for a role offering £18.50 ph, for what I normally charge £90. I don't necessarily think it's the Bob influence, as Bobs can't do what I do, so I genuinely suspect it's people trying it on.

I'd rather take a year or two out than take a rate like that.

[escapeUK]

In my line of work - Java/Banking - I'd say the last 4-8 weeks has shown me that the same 5 agencies with their respective sets of "made up" roles account for about 80% of what I'm seeing on Jobserve. These roles just get repeated every single day. You send a c.v., but get no response. It's getting to the stage where it's almost impossible to spot a "real" role.

Very frustrating.

Sounds crazy and surely self defeating. What will they do when have a real role and no one bothers applying as they all think its fake.

[nomadd]

On the other end of the spectrum there are some BI dev "roles" coming through paying in the region of 500-600/day while everybody else is paying considerably less than that. Some blatant fishing attempts in my book.

In my line of work - Java/Banking - I'd say the last 4-8 weeks has shown me that the same 5 agencies with their respective sets of "made up" roles account for about 80% of what I'm seeing on Jobserve. These roles just get repeated every single day. You send a c.v., but get no response. It's getting to the stage where it's almost impossible to spot a "real" role.

Very frustrating.

[Lockhouse]

I just find IBs often don't plan well, and are surprised to discover that if they don't know where they want to go then any road will get them there. Most clients in other industries that you speak with have a fixed piece of work in mind, and do those things they need to do to ensure you're able to hit the ground running on day one, and deliver that added benefit for them that you mention. There's very little messing around with them: you interview, if you've got the skills you start, and you get on with delivering the item under discussion. Their own staff are usually glad to have you on-board or are at least ambivalent towards you, since it's a new face and a chance to learn a new skill for them. By contrast, with IBs you tend to find that their own internal IT staff aren't highly valued within their own culture, and they're consequently unmotivated in their own work and resentful of contractors. And, unlike anywhere else I've been, they do things that make you scratch your head, like not give you a desk or a dedicated PC to work at, but nonetheless require you not to use your own equipment. They can also be fairly paranoid about restricting access to the internet, thumb drives and that type of thing. It's hard to deliver value for someone that wants to have that much control over not just what you're there to do, but also how you should do it, and weighs you down with unnecessary bureaucracy. A lot of the best guys I know don't even both tendering for work with IBs any more, since, all things being equal, it's usually just less hassle to work for someone else that's actually interested in being helped.

Top post and that's exactly how it is in my experience. I tend to work solely in IBs (95% of my work over the last 20 years) purely for the money but they are soulless, unfriendly places to work at in the main.

[Darksider]

Support roles seem to be holding steady. I'm being approached from a number of agencies for work at the moment and it's giving me good stead to renegotiate my contact extension at my current client.

[darrenb]

They therefore tend to have to pay top rate, because Contractors up here consequently treat those roles as high risk propositions. If contracts were Bond Credit Ratings, banking roles would be "DDD" rated, at least in Scotland.

True (everywhere).

When I was in the UK, I had banks try to get me to work at average rates, and basically snarl at me when I refused to accept such contracts. That kind of environment requires a premium.

[bobspud]

The real joke is, now that Wee Eck's lot are in power, the self-same people that made the decisions that brought criticism for that project are now the best thing since sliced bread and can do no wrong (it was an SNP MSP that originally raised the issue in Holyrood, whilst the SNP were an opposition party looking to point score).

OT, Glad to hear that things are still healthy in your neck of the woods work-wise. Here's hoping they pick up North of the border again soon. Failing that, I'll be getting my bags packed and travelling for my next gig.

Thats why voters should be banned from voting. Most of them are a danger to themselves and everyone standing near them.

I know that someone made HP move a MoD project up to Scotland and they are having a real bad time finding people. Go and try Lorien as a starter, and I will go root out the name of the pimp that keeps telling me its a great idea to take a role up near you for less than I was on doing it in Reading.

[Gentile]

Was that the same Scottish Parliament that was delivered on time and on budget and wasn't at all late or over spec'd because the pigs had their head so far in the trough they could not choose the right door handles?

The real joke is, now that Wee Eck's lot are in power, the self-same people that made the decisions that brought criticism for that project are now the best thing since sliced bread and can do no wrong (it was an SNP MSP that originally raised the issue in Holyrood, whilst the SNP were an opposition party looking to point score).

OT, Glad to hear that things are still healthy in your neck of the woods work-wise. Here's hoping they pick up North of the border again soon. Failing that, I'll be getting my bags packed and travelling for my next gig.

[bobspud]

I agree they're like the Public Sector, but I disagree that either of those sectors has a reputation for getting things done. One project that went on next to me in the Police (which I'm glad to say I wasn't a participant in) went ten times over budget, and was delivered many years late. They ended up asking questions about it in the Scottish Parliament it was so bad. And look at the fiasco with identity cards. It's not always the techies' fault. They're often just badly led at a local or at a political level. And as for banks......well, you need only look at the bailouts and catastrophes they've caused to international fiscal stability in recent years to see how badly the wheel's come off for them. That chaos isn't caused by being effective or by delivering.

Was that the same Scottish Parliament that was delivered on time and on budget and wasn't at all late or over spec'd because the pigs had their head so far in the trough they could not choose the right door handles?

Overspend is a common fault these days for several reasons.

1) The business is vastly over optimistic when setting the budgets and IT generally don't have the business strength to tell the truth and say now tripple your costs and remove 60% of your assumptions because you are retarded.
2) The bid process regularly takes far too long and having a room full to the brim of your suppliers best guys is not cheap or free.
3) The Supplier is forced to cut the proposition to the bone often even past the point of a safe investment. At one client I regularly saw salesmen pleading not to win the business because they knew what would happen if they did (madness)
4) If you are anywhere near someone that talks about RMADs you need to kill them or stuff their unconscious body in a ditch as fast as possible because if you don't: I or someone like me will be using their demented ramblings to get our profit margins back to where we thought they should be in the first place.
5) Changes don't just cost money they waist effort already spent. I did the same thing for 12 months at one client in 3 month cycles because two particular old sods kept flip flopping and HP had them over a barrel.

Back on topic
There are some really odd jobs out there at the moment, and I am seeing day rates span 275 --> 700 for the same skillset

I won three job offers in the few days that I was on the bench and the week leading up to it.
One was 437 a day in birmingham
The next was 500 a day in London
and my favourite was 550 in the west country. (I am starting next week)

In the background a prominent government department are looking to waist 700 a day on someone like me but couldn't get their butt out of bed to interview before my new role closed and offered me a contract, and there was a few roles in Southampton in the infrastructure space paying 600 a day + so I am seeing the worst of rates and the best. I ended up £100 a day down on my last gig but more than a tidy wage and on my doorstep in a nice part of the world...

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

I agree they're like the Public Sector, but I disagree that either of those sectors has a reputation for getting things done. One project that went on next to me in the Police (which I'm glad to say I wasn't a participant in) went ten times over budget, and was delivered many years late. They ended up asking questions about it in the Scottish Parliament it was so bad. And look at the fiasco with identity cards. It's not always the techies' fault. They're often just badly led at a local or at a political level. And as for banks......well, you need only look at the bailouts and catastrophes they've caused to international fiscal stability in recent years to see how badly the wheel's come off for them. That chaos isn't caused by being effective or by delivering.

Fair dos I guess it depends where abouts in banking you are working. I have no experience IB but worked in Retail and Technology Office.

[Gentile]

I have found that banks tend to be a lot more delivery focussed than many other industries - take where I am now or the public sector for example. I much prefer the high pressure, delivery oriented environments as they bring the best out of me and make me feel I am earning my rate. So yes they can be a bit messy but at least they get things done....

I agree they're like the Public Sector, but I disagree that either of those sectors has a reputation for getting things done. One project that went on next to me in the Police (which I'm glad to say I wasn't a participant in) went ten times over budget, and was delivered many years late. They ended up asking questions about it in the Scottish Parliament it was so bad. And look at the fiasco with identity cards. It's not always the techies' fault. They're often just badly led at a local or at a political level. And as for banks......well, you need only look at the bailouts and catastrophes they've caused to international fiscal stability in recent years to see how badly the wheel's come off for them. That chaos isn't caused by being effective or by delivering.

[NorthWestPerm2Contr]

I just find IBs often don't plan well, and are surprised to discover that if they don't know where they want to go then any road will get them there. Most clients in other industries that you speak with have a fixed piece of work in mind, and do those things they need to do to ensure you're able to hit the ground running on day one, and deliver that added benefit for them that you mention. There's very little messing around with them: you interview, if you've got the skills you start, and you get on with delivering the item under discussion. Their own staff are usually glad to have you on-board or are at least ambivalent towards you, since it's a new face and a chance to learn a new skill for them. By contrast, with IBs you tend to find that their own internal IT staff aren't highly valued within their own culture, and they're consequently unmotivated in their own work and resentful of contractors. And, unlike anywhere else I've been, they do things that make you scratch your head, like not give you a desk or a dedicated PC to work at, but nonetheless require you not to use your own equipment. They can also be fairly paranoid about restricting access to the internet, thumb drives and that type of thing. It's hard to deliver value for someone that wants to have that much control over not just what you're there to do, but also how you should do it, and weighs you down with unnecessary bureaucracy. A lot of the best guys I know don't even both tendering for work with IBs any more, since, all things being equal, it's usually just less hassle to work for someone else that's actually interested in being helped.

I have found that banks tend to be a lot more delivery focussed than many other industries - take where I am now or the public sector for example. I much prefer the high pressure, delivery oriented environments as they bring the best out of me and make me feel I am earning my rate. So yes they can be a bit messy but at least they get things done....

[Gentile]

I see what you are saying but IMO the IB clients tend to be a lot more high pressure with a culture that every pound spent must directly return two pounds and the like. It is a hire and fire culture for permies so it isn't going to be any better for contractors bearing in mind we are a flexible workforce. I personally wouldn't feel 'messed about' in contracts like this, it is just hard and fast business and I am there to be flexible. The extra rate covers this aspect for me. Being messed about for me is when more normal clients on average market rates act like dicks. Different style of working in different culture IMO so just take it at that. It's not for everyone I am sure.

I just find IBs often don't plan well, and are surprised to discover that if they don't know where they want to go then any road will get them there. Most clients in other industries that you speak with have a fixed piece of work in mind, and do those things they need to do to ensure you're able to hit the ground running on day one, and deliver that added benefit for them that you mention. There's very little messing around with them: you interview, if you've got the skills you start, and you get on with delivering the item under discussion. Their own staff are usually glad to have you on-board or are at least ambivalent towards you, since it's a new face and a chance to learn a new skill for them. By contrast, with IBs you tend to find that their own internal IT staff aren't highly valued within their own culture, and they're consequently unmotivated in their own work and resentful of contractors. And, unlike anywhere else I've been, they do things that make you scratch your head, like not give you a desk or a dedicated PC to work at, but nonetheless require you not to use your own equipment. They can also be fairly paranoid about restricting access to the internet, thumb drives and that type of thing. It's hard to deliver value for someone that wants to have that much control over not just what you're there to do, but also how you should do it, and weighs you down with unnecessary bureaucracy. A lot of the best guys I know don't even both tendering for work with IBs any more, since, all things being equal, it's usually just less hassle to work for someone else that's actually interested in being helped.