Reply to: can you haggle contract rates

[Spartacus]

If the agent asks you what is the lowest you can go, and you answer, you will find pretty quickly that by an amazing coincidence that is the highest the client is prepared to pay.

[Oscar]

The agent might not know the rate

I think agents often have to put a price on their offer. They might not know the best rate to put (But they know the marked better than you). If you ask more, they will probably put a higher rate to their client, and perhaps squeeze their margin a bit (I would guess).
Sometimes the client might come back and ask for a lower price. So if the agent ask you "What is the lowest you can go" or something like that, ask exactly what they mean. (If you can keep the rate high until the client responds, you are in a better position)

[DirtyOldMan]

RULE 1: Never post when you're under the afluence of incohol.

[css_jay99]

I normally decline to give advice of this sort, but can you not see here the guy is completely clueless ? Ex-accountant, of all things. How can someone learn the art of negotiation if he hasn't grasp the basics of contracting, like you negotiate from a position of strength, not weakness, which is not at the beginning ie before you even get an interview but at the end ie after you've impressed the client (organ-grinder) not the agent (monkey). And by the way most investment banks use Sybase, not Oracle, but I wouldn't expect our friend to know that (Are you Indian, by any chance ?)

I am not indian, I used to be an accountant (in a previous life)but have paid my dues in oracle related roles thankfully due to nature of projects I have worked on.

yes I am new to contracts which explains why i dont know much about rates. But lets be honest, I am sure every new contractor has got the hurdle to overcome in terms of confidence of how much they feel they should charge a client.

I have in the past managed 2 contractors getting paid £500/day and they were honestly clueless. All they did was add to my level of stress cos I had to do half of their jobs and phisically had to check all their code line by line and rewrite then 70% of the time . But this does not then mean that I should not get out of bed for less that that amount cos thats not realistic.
I have worked with 2 C# developers both of similar background and one gets paid £500/day while the other gets £3030/day. Does that mean the one with lower amount is selling himsef short or the other is just a lucky bas***d !

Most inv banks used Sybase, but I guarantee you that they mostly all also use Oracle bcos i have friends in most who are all oracle professionals like me. I was permie at RBS and we used oracle as well a tulipe mainframe. i am curently with Bank of america and they use oracle, sybaseas well as tulipe SQL server.

From my analysis, INV banks use sybase, mainframe for trading applications'''''. a lot of them also use Sql server + .NET.

But one thing common amongst all of them, most use Oracle for HR , Finance and BI.

ORACLE RULES !

by the way any got any new contracts, cos my projects finishes next month !?


hey Tin Tin whats indian got to do with this ?, I'm currious

css_jay99

[Not So Wise]

I question still remains,

If you pitch low, do they try and take the rest.

What do you think?

[TinTin]

Spoonfed

I normally decline to give advice of this sort, but can you not see here the guy is completely clueless ? Ex-accountant, of all things. How can someone learn the art of negotiation if he hasn't grasp the basics of contracting, like you negotiate from a position of strength, not weakness, which is not at the beginning ie before you even get an interview but at the end ie after you've impressed the client (organ-grinder) not the agent (monkey). And by the way most investment banks use Sybase, not Oracle, but I wouldn't expect our friend to know that (Are you Indian, by any chance ?)

[weboo]

The same question gets asked all the time from possible new contractors.

Before making the jump from permie to contract, you should have a fair idea of what your rates should could be, otherwise, you would not be here...after all, everyone by now must have worked with an overpaid under acheiving contractor right.....

I think getting a contract on the rate you would like is the first goal for you, as making a step in to contracting is a big one.

Once you are in the contractor market, you will soon find out how much the next person is earning and then match his/her skills to that level. Knowing your worth is different, as this depends on location, industry, skills etc.

Unlike the perm market, you can see salaries being broadcasted. Contract is different, as the agents are in it for the short term. Nothing is free, so there will always be a margin....

If there was a particular role you are looking for and perhaps get an interview...the agent will always ask a rate....just say between x and y...no bottom line as it depends on the role.(x bottom line, y what will make you sleep at night) Get through the door, then once they want you....its then betweem you and the pimp....ask what his/her % is......take it from there. If the contract id offered, the client want no-one else, so you all win.

Many people will disagree with this advice, but hey, everyone is different. Just remember, you are running your own company, should you be dictated too? or just negotiate the best deal for where everyone is happy.

[Denny]

In principle, it should be the case that what the agency take from the client is none of the contractors business.

However I do think that the contractor can be badly affected by the agency bill rate if the margin for the agency is grossly excessive compared to "normal" commercial agency margins

Very true. There is a dependency issue there, as you state. Furthermore, the client could also have unreasonably high expectations of a contractor if they are being billed £1000 per day for a contractor who is only on half that. It could lead to extended briefs, longer hours without overtime being negotiated, less latitude for reasonable mistakes made and an abrupt termination when an extention would have ensued if the EB rate was lower.

Of course it matters. The EB rate should never be above 20 per cent over. Anymore, and it's a piss take.

[css_jay99]

Well, the problem is I am new at contracting and dont know what the going rates are.

Ok maybe someone will help me out here.

I am a OCP qualified Senior Oracle developer with 7 yrs experience working on oracle 7/8i/9i/ some 10g.
I have worked on Large data migration projects doing ETL mainly using oracle packages & Pro*C.
1 year of ETL via Informatica powercenter7
some Winrunner experience
6years Frontend development in Oracle forms & reports 4.5/5/6/9i
Decent unix background

Most of my friends are not doing oracle so cant help

So what daily rates should I be looking at generally, or in the Investment bank sector ?

css_jay99

[eternalnomad]

In principle, it should be the case that what the agency take from the client is none of the contractors business.

However I do think that the contractor can be badly affected by the agency bill rate if the margin for the agency is grossly excessive compared to "normal" commercial agency margins

Lets say for example you are getting £450pd but have been sold in to a client at £1000 pd (please dont tell me this doesnt happen because I have seen it !!)

a) The client is paying for a £1000pd body - he will quite rightly expect a person with the skills and experience of that level and a person that will probably think nothing of working crazy hours to satisy requirements. In the meantime you are "only" getting £450pd and think the services you deliver are good vaue for the 450pd........this could lead to a very unhappy client and possible early termination (and even bad reputation/reference for the contractor)

b) The chances of a contractor getting extensions will be much reduced (however good they are) simply on the basis they cost so ferking much at £1000pd - at that sort of rate one tends to "stand out" quite clearly in the spreadsheet showing costs of people on a project

IMHO the agency charge its nothing to do with the contractor provided the mark-up by the agency is not totally and utterly taking the p155

[boredsenseless]

I'd second that. If you're happy with the rate, and the contract terms, then that should be the end of it.

Thirded (it its a word, and the pedantic g1ts on here will soon tell me if it is not!)

The only way to do business is to set your own prices, if the person buying can then re-sell at more it really is none of your business. The only exception is if you accept a low rate because the agent says 'That is all they can afford', but even then you can't really complain as you should have stuck to your guns and said if they can't afford they can't have.

It's the same as you walking into a BMW garage, looking at the M3 and saying I'll have one of them but I only want to pay the price of a 320 diesel. Is the salesguy going to ask his manager if its okay to sell the premium article at the ludicrous rate or is he going to connect your arse, his foot and an open door into one swift movement.

Know your price and stick with your price.

However that doesn't preclude you wanting to earn 450/day but always starting at 500/day knowing that you can 'come down a little on price seeing as it's for you and you've been good in the past'.

Ever wondered why consultancies published day rates are always at least 25% higher than what they actually end up charging, it's because everyone likes a discount, even if the 'original' price wasn't real in the first place

[Mordac]

Why would it be good news for you? You've already got your £450 per day, that's your negotiation done with. The agent's negotiation with the client is none of your business, and whether the client pays £550 or £1550 per day for your services is between the client and agent.

Pitch yourself at the right level that you're comfortable with from the start.

I'd second that. If you're happy with the rate, and the contract terms, then that should be the end of it.

[meridian]

I question still remains,

If you pitch low, do they try and take the rest.

Example, say you told the agency you want £450 per day
And the agency agrees with the Client on £550

Would the agency gent back to you with good news saying they negotiated £550 or do they just pocket the extra £100 ! ?

css_jay99

Why would it be good news for you? You've already got your £450 per day, that's your negotiation done with. The agent's negotiation with the client is none of your business, and whether the client pays £550 or £1550 per day for your services is between the client and agent.

Pitch yourself at the right level that you're comfortable with from the start.

[ratewhore]

Know your rate - that's what it comes down to in the end. Unless your back is against the wall (i.e. you desperately need the gig) tell the pimp the rate you want then when they ask the lowest rate you would go to, give them the same rate again. I've told pimps before that the rate was too low for the role and have upped the rate by 30% (£450/day for a sec arch, cheeky feckers). It doesn't take long for them to get back to you if they need you. Of course, sometimes you'll never hear from them again but that's the nature of the game...

[thunderlizard]

Yes, you can haggle. I say haggle, but as the supplier you should be setting the price anyway.
A lot of agents will still take as much as they can, but the business has been institutionalised over the years, especially with big clients, and a lot more of them are on fixed margins these days. (though even the ones that aren't on fixed margins will tell you that they are).