Reply to: IT contracting in Finance

[Stan]

I have worked in finance a lot but I wouldn't exclude other industries at all.

Yes it's just data you are churning around usually but this is all that programming ever is. For me the enjoyment comes in the technology and producing pleasing code, not in the domain itself.

IB is about mindset and work ethic rather than actual domain knowledge. You are more likely to end up on a workaholic team than not at an IB.

So, OP - if you know your tulip and enjoy knowing your tulip, go for a IB job and tell them as much and you should be fine.

[nomadd]

There's also a definite mindset change, and I'm not sure if that's because most of the retail banking was outside of London, but at about 15:00 people start to leave the office to pursue outside interssts. Contrast that with London where it gets to 18:00 and everybody is still sat there. Nobody seems to have a life other than 'lets go down the pub'. Sad.

Agreed. But then I make it perfectly clear to clients that I "have a life" during the interview. I refuse to work beyond 4:30, as I get in at 7:45. Some banking clients don't like that, so I simply refuse to work for them. There is also far too much of the "free overtime" attitude in banks these days; never done it myself, and I never will.

Like you say, there is nothing sadder then seeing someone rot away in an office for 10-15 hours a day (especially as these days the clients don't even want to pay contractors overtime for it...)

[oliverson]

Then you are in the wrong job. Life is too short. Move on. ...Seriously.



Interesting. My split is 10% Retail, and 90% IB. I despised Retail Banking. Each to their own, I guess.



Well said. Now go follow your own advice.

If only life was that simple nomadd. The problem is you get used to the trappings of big rates and in some cases you haven't the option to take less - not without losing a house or two! So my advice to those who don't have such constraints is stay well clear.

The retail banking projects are interesting to me - you tend to work more with infrastructure - code to deploy s/w throughout an estate, cheque scanning for ATM's, etc, etc. It's much more interesting than 'display a grid of data' (again).

There's also a definite mindset change, and I'm not sure if that's because most of the retail banking was outside of London, but at about 15:00 people start to leave the office to pursue outside interssts. Contrast that with London where it gets to 18:00 and everybody is still sat there. Nobody seems to have a life other than 'lets go down the pub'. Sad.

[nomadd]

For a standard .NET developer that is willing to move to the banking sector, what sort of technology in the .NET world (or outside of it) would be interesting to learn?
Could anyone recommend topics or perhaps books that are useful to the sector?

Around here it's mainly C#, WPF and all the threading related APIs. That's pretty much standard in most IBs.

[sog]

For a standard .NET developer that is willing to move to the banking sector, what sort of technology in the .NET world (or outside of it) would be interesting to learn?
Could anyone recommend topics or perhaps books that are useful to the sector?

[nomadd]

It's dull, boring and demoralising

Then you are in the wrong job. Life is too short. Move on. ...Seriously.

I've a decades worth of contracting split probably 50/50 between retail banking and investment banking. I'd take the former anyday as it's much more interesting.

Interesting. My split is 10% Retail, and 90% IB. I despised Retail Banking. Each to their own, I guess.

Don't jump on the bandwagon thinking big money = big happiness. It doesn't. Find something that interests you and pursue that.

Well said. Now go follow your own advice.

[oliverson]

Can't say I agree with the .NET rates being that low. Mine (and some other colleagues) are much the same as the high-end Java role advertised, specialist subject being WPF.

However, and I urge all those considering coming into the market, I just wouldn't bother. It's dull, boring and demoralising. If all you're about is working with streams/grids of data then fair play. I can't imagine a more boring industry than banking. I've a decades worth of contracting split probably 50/50 between retail banking and investment banking. I'd take the former anyday as it's much more interesting.

Don't jump on the bandwagon thinking big money = big happiness. It doesn't. Find something that interests you and pursue that.

[7of9]

Thanks for the info, nomadd

Yes, but only if they are very good. And that means industry experience in IB and very solid specific technical skills. A "typical" Java or .Net developer won't even get close, as the market is flooded with lots of those types (about 1 billion of them being the output of Indian "Universities".) We have British server-side .Net Devs in the office who are on £350-400 / day, as the marketplace is flooded with them; I'd estimate that the other - 70% - of them in the building are Indian, over here on visas (and those guys will be on far, far less than £400 / day.)



About 2 years permie and 23 years contract (and yes, I am truly, truly ashamed about the extended period I spent in permiedom! Mind you, I did spend most of that 2 years looking for my first contract...)



Very strong knowledge of Grid/Cluster-based computing. Very strong low-latency and multi-threading knowledge. Basically someone who really knows what they are doing, and not just someone who has "read up" a bit. Believe me, building a system with guaranteed response times and yet is still capable of extremely high throughput and scalability is not easy. We have no problem weeding out those who have "done it" from those who are "less than what they appear to be on their CV".

[7of9]

Why do contractors think it pays to target one sector only? I take work as and when it comes regardless of sector. I am an IT specialist not a sector specialist and can certainly not afford to be only taking roles in one area and turning down others.

I don't know about London but Pharma, Telecoms and others all appear to pay something about the same and are a hell of a lot more stable at the moment.

hi northernladuk, I totally agree with you. I do not want to target one sector only. At the moment, all my experience are from pharma. Hence I need to switch to a different industry/industries. So I can call myself IT specialist not a IT Pharma specialist =)

[simplicity]

Really good thread - it very interesting to see the daily rates information and the skills required to command this rate. Thank you for sharing, much appreciated.

[nomadd]

Thanks Nomadd

Can I ask just a few questions

1) When a job is advertised at 750->850 are people who get placed likely to get the 850 number?

Yes, but only if they are very good. And that means industry experience in IB and very solid specific technical skills. A "typical" Java or .Net developer won't even get close, as the market is flooded with lots of those types (about 1 billion of them being the output of Indian "Universities".) We have British server-side .Net Devs in the office who are on £350-400 / day, as the marketplace is flooded with them; I'd estimate that the other - 70% - of them in the building are Indian, over here on visas (and those guys will be on far, far less than £400 / day.)

2) How many years experience do you have?

About 2 years permie and 23 years contract (and yes, I am truly, truly ashamed about the extended period I spent in permiedom! Mind you, I did spend most of that 2 years looking for my first contract...)

3) Why exactly are you finding it difficult to find someone when paying that amount? What skills are you looking for and what skills are they lacking?

Very strong knowledge of Grid/Cluster-based computing. Very strong low-latency and multi-threading knowledge. Basically someone who really knows what they are doing, and not just someone who has "read up" a bit. Believe me, building a system with guaranteed response times and yet is still capable of extremely high throughput and scalability is not easy. We have no problem weeding out those who have "done it" from those who are "less than what they appear to be on their CV".

[DeludedAussie]

Well, I can only comment for what I do (HPC/Grid computing), and it's around £750-850+ / day at the moment for good people (Java Developer - Core Java - Multithread - Low Latency - Spring - Investment Banking London Contract IT Job) You can ignore the lower figure on that job spec., as no-one in their right mind with the appropriate experience would take it (...we've just spent 6 months finding one single contractor with the the right skills and experience to join our team, for instance; and money was never an object.)

The Telecoms and Pharmas I've worked for in the past around here (London/Northern H.C.) are paying half that kind of rate at the moment. I still get lots of calls from agents, as obviously they see the names on the CV, but the rates on offer are shocking, much less than I used to earn in those industries 10 years ago. Guess that's something to do with the Indian outsourcing most of them have undertaken? They seem to expect "plenty cheapness" from everyone these days!

Your experience in the job market may differ, but the above is what I've found when looking around at the contract market for the last 5 years or so. Hence the switch back to Banking.

TBH, all I'm trying to do is get "one last bite of the cherry" before I retire in 5 years time. If that means working in Banking for the money, then so be it; at the end of the day, my Pension fund doesn't care where the money is coming from.

Thanks Nomadd

Can I ask just a few questions

1) When a job is advertised at 750->850 are people who get placed likely to get the 850 number?

2) How many years experience do you have?

3) Why exactly are you finding it difficult to find someone when paying that amount? What skills are you looking for and what skills are they lacking?

[nomadd]

How much exactly are they paying Nomadd??

Well, I can only comment for what I do (HPC/Grid computing), and it's around £750-850+ / day at the moment for good people (Java Developer - Core Java - Multithread - Low Latency - Spring - Investment Banking London Contract IT Job) You can ignore the lower figure on that job spec., as no-one in their right mind with the appropriate experience would take it (...we've just spent 6 months finding one single contractor with the the right skills and experience to join our team, for instance; and money was never an object.)

The Telecoms and Pharmas I've worked for in the past around here (London/Northern H.C.) are paying half that kind of rate at the moment. I still get lots of calls from agents, as obviously they see the names on the CV, but the rates on offer are shocking, much less than I used to earn in those industries 10 years ago. Guess that's something to do with the Indian outsourcing most of them have undertaken? They seem to expect "plenty cheapness" from everyone these days!

Your experience in the job market may differ, but the above is what I've found when looking around at the contract market for the last 5 years or so. Hence the switch back to Banking.

TBH, all I'm trying to do is get "one last bite of the cherry" before I retire in 5 years time. If that means working in Banking for the money, then so be it; at the end of the day, my Pension fund doesn't care where the money is coming from.

[Clippy]

How much exactly are they paying Nomadd??

Why do you need to know what 'they are paying' considering your previous claims of working in the city?

Or was that also bullsh!t?

[DeludedAussie]

Well, to give you a London perspective...

Pharma and Telecoms (worked in both many times over the years) are currently paying peanuts compared to IBs in London. ...Hence why I switched back to IBs.

How much exactly are they paying Nomadd??