Reply to: Outstanding Invoices & Umbrella's

[rz6bm7]

..

[ASB]

And just to confirm if you use a brolly you have NO contract with the agency. The contract is with the brolly and the brolly has one with the agency. In legal terms I would assume that the agency therefore does not owe you anything.

That is llikely to be true in almost all situations.

It is possible however to still have a contract with the agency {as well} depending upon underlying terms (although that would tend to imply also signing the contract in a personal capacity). Further it is possible there might just be an implied contract between the individual and the agency.

[Xtrain]

Commission...

Employee???, Mmm I think not for they are not willing to pay this expense incurred whilst working on contract as it is owed by the agency/client not by them.
Good sales pitch Xtrain you on commision for Parasol?.

So we have confirmed that they are the employer and therefore are liable for all employment rights should anyone claim them and now you think I'm working for them! That would be one weird way to earn commission. And just to confirm if you use a brolly you have NO contract with the agency. The contract is with the brolly and the brolly has one with the agency. In legal terms I would assume that the agency therefore does not owe you anything.

[rz6bm7]

Employee???, Mmm I think not for they are not willing to pay this expense incurred whilst working on contract as it is owed by the agency/client not by them.
Good sales pitch Xtrain you on commision for Parasol?.

[Xtrain]

and thank you...

Mordac - apology accepted.

Parasol pay maternity pay as well because I asked the question when I was with them (erm.. girlfriend "issue" at the time). No doubt they would stick to the rules of eligibility as much as they can but that must be a big worry for them. I think from memory they would have to pay 90% of earnings (which in the contracting market is alot of dosh) for a number of weeks followed by a statutory amount for another period. No doubt they will get a flood of women going through them once that is out in the open.

You will probably find they and the other brollys have factored all this into their fees and respond accordingly when the number of claims goes up.

What would be enlightning is a some kind of "ambulance chasing" type legal company doing a class action for holiday pay / redundancy etc... on behalf of all the "employees".

[Mordac]

Bit harsh Mordac.... Contractors (typically) don't want to pay big fees (look at the p4 moans) and get those permie like benefits. Who would realistically use a brolly that charged a really high rate just to cover sick pay? Brollies allow newbs to progress and clealry serve a purpose. You may not agree with that but at least Parasol have the balls to be honest.

>permie like benefits

We neither expect nor want them. That's what contracting is all about, with freedom comes responsibility (in this case the responsibility to sort these things out for ourselves). As I said, if Parasol just marketed themselves as a payroll agency (which, in truth is what they are) that would be fine. I just found it hard to believe a Parasol person coming on here and admitting that their "clients" are actually employees. They are potentially opening themselves up to a lot of claims, which may well be spurious, but thanks to NewLie and the EU, employees now have more rights than you can shake a stick at.

[freshblue]

Lower rates and no expenses if on Agency PAYE - the cycle is often Agency PAYE -> Brolly -> Limited and back again!

[Newby]

If Parasol are the employer, then what is the difference between them and someone working PAYE with an agency. It really isn't that difficult to offset expenses against earnings to reduce taxable income.

The whole reason for chosing a brolly is that you are caught by IR35 so need a vehicle to be tax efficient, but it is nothing more than expenses offset against taxable earnings. I am amazed that agents don't do brollys themselves, (well some do NWM being one I can think of), they are normally up for scamming every last penny they can.

Brave of Parasol to come on though, I say give him some credit for that.

[freshblue]

Bit harsh Mordac.... Contractors (typically) don't want to pay big fees (look at the p4 moans) and get those permie like benefits. Who would realistically use a brolly that charged a really high rate just to cover sick pay? Brollies allow newbs to progress and clealry serve a purpose. You may not agree with that but at least Parasol have the balls to be honest.

[Mordac]

Well now Mordac, Parasol have come on here and said they employed you!! No doubt you can disagree with them as well. And no matter what Parasol say about employment rights like SSP / maternity etc... they have a legal obligation to pay it regardless of what they say and charge. Obviously if everyone did claim they would have to charge accordingly which is basically what they said.

Oh how the Parasol's of this world must love people like yourself.

Quite frankly I'm amazed. At their stupidity, that is. All indications are that Parasol (in common with all similar umbrellas) are simply providing a payroll service for freelance contractors, and one of their people comes on here and tells us (in writing) that their clients are actually employees. Thay almost deserve to get stitched up for that. Perhaps someone should volunteer to get preggers and claim maternity pay from them.
XTrain, it seems I owe you some sort of apology. Mind you, the first person who claims will almost certainly be the last.

[ASB]

They could be a bit exposed....

Legal entitlement is for 4 weeks paid holidy per annum (or pro rata). SSP is also payable for sick (and proably not reclaimable).

It does seem to me that their model may be a bit flawed. What I would have thought they ought to be doing is charging a rather larger fee and then passing this on as holiday pay or on departure of the employee (as the law generally stipulates).

There was an argument to say "holiday is rolled up into pay" by certain categroeis of employer - but it had to be absolutely crystal clear in the contract of employment.

A recent ECJ decision has ruled this currently unlawful. http://www.pinsentmasons.com/media/561764804.pdf

[Xtrain]

Take a chance

It would seem they are taking a chance and hoping the vast majority don't claim for any rights.

[tim123]

Do Parasol employ contractors? - in essence yes. Our contract between worker and Parasol is in general terms an employment contract but does have aspects that seek to balance between Agency obligations (e.g. walking off site before notice period) and Employment Law. The main problem is that the economic structure, current taxation law and the nature of UK Agency/clients realtionships does not allow companies like Parasol to be true Employers with all the bells and whistles. We and others don't make margin on time and thus it is difficult to see where funding for full employment benefits would come from.

The problem with this is that if you *are* the employer (and you seem to be accepting that you are) you don't get to choose whether to offer employment benefits or not. There is no contractual form that you can place in front of your 'employees' that gives you the possibility of opting out of them, any attempt to do so would be void. If the employee of the umbrella wanted to enforce their right to these benefits in court, the brolly would lose (unless it could show that there isn't an employer-employee relationship at all).

A brolly has two choices: either it factors the provision of employment rights into its fee (or an individual retention). Or it takes a chance than none of it 'employees' attempts to enforce their statutory right to employee benefits.

Most choose the latter.

HTH

tim

[rz6bm7]

The bottom line

A Chocolate tea pot.

I chose an umbrella because I needed to bail out of permiedom quickly, a large agency left me few options and I chose Parasol from the few (don't you love agents?) an umbrella is the easiest and safest way to test the water, my LTD is about to get used because I am self employed not a lingering permie.
If the contract had been direct I would have taken the agency to small claims however due to the tiny amount involved ditching Parasol is possibly the best option in my case, this tea pot has melted.

Gent's you can put your handbags away..

[Xtrain]

So that would be you then? As I said in an earlier post (which you conveniently dodged) why not ring them up and ask about your employee rights. Please post the response on here. Failing that copy and paste the text from your "employment contract" which states you are an employee of Parasol.
If you think you're an expert, bring it on. Don't forget the brain cell next time though.

Well now Mordac, Parasol have come on here and said they employed you!! No doubt you can disagree with them as well. And no matter what Parasol say about employment rights like SSP / maternity etc... they have a legal obligation to pay it regardless of what they say and charge. Obviously if everyone did claim they would have to charge accordingly which is basically what they said.

Oh how the Parasol's of this world must love people like yourself.