Reply to: Agency Asking For 'Career Start' Date = Age Discrimination ?

[Bunk]

I've been working with contractors long enough to know that you're only ever nice when you want something

Are you sure you're Mr. Kettle?

[SueEllen]

Yes I know. It's just that in the post I responded to he quoted you but started his post from my previous one. Mind you I'm far too insensitive to ever notice somebody not being nice to me.

So am I on the interweb.

I didn't realise you could get sensitive pimps though.

[ASB]

ASB he was having a go at me for starting my post with bollocks.

Yes I know. It's just that in the post I responded to he quoted you but started his post from my previous one. Mind you I'm far too insensitive to ever notice somebody not being nice to me.

[SueEllen]

I trust you are not suggesting I wasn't nice to you. I was expressing a view different than yours and explaining why.

ASB he was having a go at me for starting my post with bollocks.

[ASB]

>>>>>
Age discrimination protection does not cover the provision of goods and services.

>>>

So are you an employee of the end client? or a self employed contractor?

YOU ARE NOT EMPLOYED BY THE END CLIENT.

YOU ARE NOT EMPLOYED BY THE AGENCY.

YOU ARE EMPLOYED BY YOUR OWN LIMITED COMPANY.

YOU ARE A SERVICE PROVIDER......


You're not reading this properly.....read the context - "your employer", "the employer", "the employee".

I'll say it again - if you want to make an age discrimination case as a contractor, you go right ahead - it's your tax bill.

As for expecting people to be "nice" to me - I've been working with contractors long enough to know that you're only ever nice when you want something - I'm asking you to address me like a human being, and take a step off of your soap box.

I trust you are not suggesting I wasn't nice to you. I was expressing a view different than yours and explaining why.

I take your point about service providers though I am sceptical as to whether it has merit. If, for example, you are providing a worker who is is opted in to the agency regs that I believe you are without about supplying a worker and I fail to see through vicarious liability (at least I think that is the correct term) that you view could possibly prevail.

However, of itself asking for a start date is not discriminatory - it only is if the end client uses it in their acquisition process.

You are, in my view, without doubt confusing "worker" and "employee". The term worker is that which is used in legislation. It goes beyond employee and it is individually defined in each piece of legislation it is used.

The mechanics for an age discrimination case are to get it listed initially at an employment tribunal. They will then consider whether the legislation can apply and the parties it applies between. Should somebody do this - and win - it, of itself makes no difference to their tax status. The tribunal is not judging whether they are an actual employee of the client (and it is almost certain they would find that the contractor wasn't).

It may well be (and it's quite likely in my view) that should age discrimination occur you as the agent are not a party to it. But simply because you view yourself as a service provider and the contractor does (or at least should) this does not mean the act does not apply. Where the service is the provision of a worker then the goods and services exemption does not apply.

[SueEllen]

>>>>>
Age discrimination protection does not cover the provision of goods and services.

>>>

So are you an employee of the end client? or a self employed contractor?

YOU ARE NOT EMPLOYED BY THE END CLIENT.

YOU ARE NOT EMPLOYED BY THE AGENCY.

YOU ARE EMPLOYED BY YOUR OWN LIMITED COMPANY.

YOU ARE A SERVICE PROVIDER......

You were advised to stop digging and consult a solicitor.

I know a few but they would charge you for advice and I've also had to listen to others argue with them about aspects of law like this.

Firstly not all contractors have their own limited companies some use umbrella companies, some go directly through the agency and others use random schemes.

Secondly as I seem to need to repeat myself again, the discrimination laws have been specifically written or amended to prevent companies using the goods and services defence when using the services of contractors, freelancers or self-employed people whatever legal structure they try and use. So the defence of that they were supplying goods and services will not stand up in court.

You're not reading this properly.....read the context - "your employer", "the employer", "the employee".

The law is careful use the of the word "employee" in this context. Read ASB post again as it will help you stay out of trouble.

I'll say it again - if you want to make an age discrimination case as a contractor, you go right ahead - it's your tax bill.

There is a difference between thinking you have a discrimination case and proving you have a case. For example it's easier for a female contractor who tells the client she is pregnant and then mysteriously loses her contract to threaten to sue under sex discrimination laws to get a pay out then, for someone of either sex to try and use the age discrimination laws. There have unfortunately been female posters on this board who have had to do this.

As for expecting people to be "nice" to me - I've been working with contractors long enough to know that you're only ever nice when you want something - I'm asking you to address me like a human being, and take a step off of your soap box.

I am trying to stop you spreading misinformation.

You think you are doing the same, but a bit of googling and talking to solicitors will make you understand that you could be putting your own self at financial risk if you don't understand the law. In discrimination cases, while it's rare, the claimant can claim against people personally not just the companies involved and the compensation for a successful claim is unlimited.

[ratewhore]

I've noticed a few of these tricks creeping in, agents want to ask what you know about the V model, what's in a Test Plan blah, blah, blah.

Tell em to poke it. That's what you discuss in the interview. In my experience, pimps know fook all squared about this stuff...

[DodgyAgent]

Hello mr Pot - I'm Mr Kettle - Did you just call me black??

[The Agents View]

Hello mr Pot - I'm Mr Kettle - Did you just call me black??

[DodgyAgent]

Although - phone work in my opinion is not the be all and end all.

But once again, my opinion is probably wrong......

I would suggest that being on the phone is a darn site more productive than posting on here.

[The Agents View]

Should'nt you be on the phone?

I am on the phone - this is called multi-tasking.

Although - phone work in my opinion is not the be all and end all.

But once again, my opinion is probably wrong......

[DodgyAgent]

>>>>>
Age discrimination protection does not cover the provision of goods and services.

>>>

So are you an employee of the end client? or a self employed contractor?

YOU ARE NOT EMPLOYED BY THE END CLIENT.

YOU ARE NOT EMPLOYED BY THE AGENCY.

YOU ARE EMPLOYED BY YOUR OWN LIMITED COMPANY.

YOU ARE A SERVICE PROVIDER......


You're not reading this properly.....read the context - "your employer", "the employer", "the employee".

I'll say it again - if you want to make an age discrimination case as a contractor, you go right ahead - it's your tax bill.

As for expecting people to be "nice" to me - I've been working with contractors long enough to know that you're only ever nice when you want something - I'm asking you to address me like a human being, and take a step off of your soap box.

Should'nt you be on the phone?

[The Agents View]

ASB - you are so kind.

The Agents View - when people who claim to be agents, and therefore have some control over others livelihoods, spread misinformation about the law then they have to be corrected.

And as you are a pimp don't expect people to be kind to you on this board. Notice it's called contractoruk not agentuk.

>>>>>
Age discrimination protection does not cover the provision of goods and services.

>>>

So are you an employee of the end client? or a self employed contractor?

YOU ARE NOT EMPLOYED BY THE END CLIENT.

YOU ARE NOT EMPLOYED BY THE AGENCY.

YOU ARE EMPLOYED BY YOUR OWN LIMITED COMPANY.

YOU ARE A SERVICE PROVIDER......


You're not reading this properly.....read the context - "your employer", "the employer", "the employee".

I'll say it again - if you want to make an age discrimination case as a contractor, you go right ahead - it's your tax bill.

As for expecting people to be "nice" to me - I've been working with contractors long enough to know that you're only ever nice when you want something - I'm asking you to address me like a human being, and take a step off of your soap box.

[SueEllen]

ASB - you are so kind.

The Agents View - when people who claim to be agents, and therefore have some control over others livelihoods, spread misinformation about the law then they have to be corrected.

And as you are a pimp don't expect people to be kind to you on this board. Notice it's called contractoruk not agentuk.

[ASB]

<sigh> Wrong!

The contract is between the agency and the limited company, for the provision of consultancy resources. I place Limited companies, to complete specific pieces of work, complete with substitution clauses - it doesn't matter if that piece of work is SueEllen limited, or a major consultancy business - the LIMITED COMPANY is the employer, and the only people who can be subjected to age discrimination laws in employment, are employers - otherwise, you're all psuedo permanent employees - and I'll expect you'll love your visit from the Inland Revenue.

SueEllen - May I also suggest you tone your language down a tad please - I don't address you like that, kindly extend me the same courtesy.

When in hole stop digging.

1) Age discrimination protects against being denied employment. This rather defeats your argument against it only applying to employees

2) Age discrimination protects WORKERS. Third party staff can (and usually are) workers under the definition in the legislation.

If you take your somewhat strange view one could infer that one of your clients may say "hey TAV no pakistanis" and there would be no breach of the race relations act.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employme...rk/DG_10026429

Age discrimination at work is unlawful in almost all types of employment. All employees and workers of any age are protected from age discrimination including partners of firms, contract workers and anyone in vocational training.
All aspects of your employment (or prospective employment) are protected from age discrimination, including your recruitment, employment terms and conditions, promotions, transfers, dismissals and training.
In some cases different treatment of a worker or employee because of their age can be justified, for example making special provisions for younger or older workers in order to protect their safety and welfare. See section on objective justification below.
Age discrimination protection does not cover the provision of goods and services.

I would concede that you might try to justify your argument with the last sentence (i.e. you are providing goods and services) however I really wouldn't want to be chatting with a judge on that basis.